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Film grain is desirable?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantlasitter
Registered: May 30, 2008
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Like every medium, film stock has its limitations. I've always thought of film grain as an expression of the resolution limitation of a given piece of film, so I'm often confused about discussions of DNR and film grain.

I'm not a fan of DNR that generates plastic skin tones, but I still wonder: If directors / cinematographers of yesteryear could have their way, would they have chosen the film stock available to them or would they have jumped at the chance to use digital video that could be processed to have as much or little simulated grain as one might want?

I think one indication is probably whatever the bulk of current day directors cinematographers are doing based upon a different set of available choices.

Opinions?
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I think the shift to digital "filming" has more to do with saving money than it has to do with getting a better picture.

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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantVibroCount
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In more than a century of movie making, there was significant progress in the ability of lights, lenses, cameras, filmstock, processing, and projecting the images the filmmaker and cinematographer wanter to achieve. Grainy stock became less grainy; black and white was given tints, later full color; cameras and projectors went from hand cranked to motor driven, then synchronized to sound. Some improvements brought new challenges... color correction for light temperatures, deeper focus and faster shutters need brighter lights, distortion inherent in widescreen anamorphic lenses.

As time passed, nostaligia became part of the artistic process... hand-held camera techniques and natural light added to cinema verite; black and white became "arty"... grainy was scary or noir... day for night shooting became more obviously fake.

But as each bit of technological progress was available, it gave each filmmaker, cinematographer, art director (etc.) more choices. Filmstock was made which produced both positives and negatives... store the negative until final editing conforming to the rough edits using the positive stock (and the dailies were prettier, too!).

Digital is simply the latest tool in the filmmakers' sack. It has different limitations than film, and these too will change, improve, and give new ideas on how to make a movie. I've edited film and I've edited video. And just like the differences in editing analog audio tape and editing a digital signal, each requires a love of the results to be good.
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Cliff
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Film grain can be desirable but I don't think it matters. What I do mind is DNR that removes the original look of the film. Technical limitations, desirable or not, are just as much a part of movie history as everything else that goes into making them and I want it preserved now and forever.
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Making a film is in part making a work of art.
How the end result looks is very much a very subjective mix of all contribuants (sound mix, editing, film grain or not, etc) and the end-responsible person. Be that the director or the manager of the producing company. Vibrocount is right about that.

So, whether film grain is desirable for a given movie or not is very much anybody's personal opinion. Just when you look at a painting and like it or not, a piece of music, a sculpture, ...

Now the general public may vehemently disagree with that director or manager. As much as the black&white of "the Artist" charmed the Oscar voters, I've seen stories that people left the cinema deeply disappointed for the same reason.

So, on something deeply personal as making a judgement on film grain, I think no common opinion is easily reached or even desirable.
Eric

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DNR, on the other hand, is a byproduct of converting a movie to DVD. And too often, technicians are not careful enough, sadly. In short, IMHO, if you can seriously notice it, it's bad.
Eric

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Quoting eommen:
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So, whether film grain is desirable for a given movie or not is very much anybody's personal opinion.

Even though everyone has--and can express--their opinion on whether or not they want to see grain in a film, it is a fact that removing grain from an existing film that contains grain has the side effect of removing other picture detail in addition to the grain.  The question then becomes how much detail are you willing to sacrifice to eliminate film grain that's an inherent part of film?

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Does anyone know of anyone shooting digitally and then processing on the back end to generate the effect of film grain (if that's possible)?
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Quoting scotthm:
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The question then becomes how much detail are you willing to sacrifice to eliminate film grain that's an inherent part of film?

I'm also posing another question: If you could shoot high resolution digital such that you had detail and no grain, or you could shoot large format / military grade negatives such that grain was not detectable in standard projection situations, would having detail without grain be a good thing?
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Quoting lasitter:
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I'm also posing another question: If you could shoot high resolution digital such that you had detail and no grain, or you could shoot large format / military grade negatives such that grain was not detectable in standard projection situations, would having detail without grain be a good thing?


Not necessarily since a high level of detail is not always desirable. Of course it's good to have the option when it's needed and wanted, but always? I don't know but I think that would just make the films boring to look at if there is no variation and everything looks like "real life" even when it's not supposed to. I don't want movies to imitate real life, I want to be swept away by someone's imagination.
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It all depends. What was the filmmakers intent? Grain or s grainy film stock may have deliberately been used used to give a specific feel to a film.
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Quoting lasitter:
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would having detail without grain be a good thing?

More to the point, if you're busy looking at the grain you're probably not enjoying the movie.  It's probably better to just try another video game.

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I think this is also different from whether you want depth of field present in a given shot.

Assuming that part of the scene is out of focus as desired, but another part is in sharp focus, do you you think most directors / cinematographers would want the in-focus part of the screen to show film grain?

I have a theory that film grain is often present just because that's the best that could have been accomplished at the time.

It's one of many questions that are routinely overlooked in director's commentaries / interviews.
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Quoting lasitter:
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...I have a theory that film grain is often present just because that's the best that could have been accomplished at the time...


If you look up a film's production date that might be right. Yes, there are movies where grain was an unavoidable byproduct of that day's state of technology. But for the most part, at least for the last 2 or 3 decades, I agree with Skip, it's just what was intended, visually.

Another matter is whether you like the way the filmmaker intended it to be   
Eric

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Quoting lasitter:
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Does anyone know of anyone shooting digitally and then processing on the back end to generate the effect of film grain (if that's possible)?

Anyone familiar with picture editing products like Photoshop (and alike products for movies) will acknowledge that anything is possible. It's just a matter of defining mathematically what grain should look like and bingo, it is generated.

If they can produce blue oversized smurfs on Avatar, destruction of the Golden Gate bridge (quiz: how many movies have done that by now, so far...? Just asking), etc., do you really think generating film grain retrograde is that difficult?
Eric

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Quoting lasitter:
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...Assuming that part of the scene is out of focus as desired, but another part is in sharp focus, do you you think most directors / cinematographers would want the in-focus part of the screen to show film grain?...


They might... or not. Your basic assumption throughout the thread seems to be that film grain is a pain to the eyes and is basically only there if technology couldn't avoid it.

I think that assumption cannot be held true.

Compare it to soft focus. Though even in the non-digital era high levels of detail (sharpness) were achievable, especially when lighting was perfect, filmmakers chose deliberately for soft focus. Again, you can like or dislike it, but as KinoNiki and Scotthm suggested, there is the bigger issue that the movie isn't exactly involving you. 
Eric

If it is important, say it. Otherwise, let silence speak.
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