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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1  Previous   Next
Let's not go around changing name orders for existing Asian movie profiles
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DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
Registered: June 17, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
United States Posts: 1,328
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I just voted no to a profile change for My Sassy Girl (8-809032-221115  Locality: South Korea).

Contribution notes state
Quote:
Updated crew and cast, from the end credits. A lot of help with the names came from Hancinema. I compared the Korean characters from that site with the actual end credits to get the correct order. Cast roles were also taken from that site.

At the moment there are about 10 variants for Jeon Ji-hyeon (common spelling from hancinema.net) in the CLT. I'm currently checking the credits for all her movies. When there's a new common name, I'll recontribute.


As regular contributors to this forum knows, naming orders for Asian names is a controversial topic.  The credit for this movie lists cast and crew in Korean only.  The existing profile lists the name romanized in Given Name/Family Name order.  The proposed changes reverses the name order to Family Name/Given Name order.  I understand the contributors reason for making this change, but as long as we do not have an official policy on this matter, I wish he would not go on making these changes.

This problem is not unique to Korean names.  What I find interesting is that most Japanese movies also have cast/crew lists only in Japanese in Family Name/Given Name format, but for some reason the existing profiles universally converts them to Given Name/Family Name format (ie. Akira Kurosawa).
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
Profiling since Dec. 2000
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Netherlands Posts: 8,733
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Quoting xradman:
Quote:
I understand the contributors reason for making this change, but as long as we do not have an official policy on this matter, I wish he would not go on making these changes.

And what if we don't get "an official policy on this matter"? There hasn't been much progress on the subject in, say, the last five years either... 
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
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This problem could be solved easily with a local tick box that reverses first and last name. In the database, given name would be in first name field, and family name in last name field. Rules should precise that this is the way to contribute. With the tick box, people who want correct display in their local would be able to display asian names in the order used for those names in their country.

ZHANG Ziyi would be contributed Ziyi Zhang, and displayed Zhang Ziyi.
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 Last edited: by surfeur51
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTaro
Registered: February 23, 2009
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We really need an official ruling and/or program change to finally tackle this issue. Here's keeping my fingers crossed.

In the mean time, when I profile Japanese discs with Japanese-only credits, I write the first name in the first field and the family name in the last field. That way I'm being somewhat consistent and if Ken does decide to apply the rules for western names to Asian names as well, perhaps with a program change like Surfeur suggested, then it's already filled in correctly.

But really, all problems related to Asian names, titles, accented names etc, really needs to be tackled at the source by Invelos.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
Registered: June 17, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
United States Posts: 1,328
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Quoting Taro:
Quote:
We really need an official ruling and/or program change to finally tackle this issue. Here's keeping my fingers crossed.

In the mean time, when I profile Japanese discs with Japanese-only credits, I write the first name in the first field and the family name in the last field. That way I'm being somewhat consistent and if Ken does decide to apply the rules for western names to Asian names as well, perhaps with a program change like Surfeur suggested, then it's already filled in correctly.

But really, all problems related to Asian names, titles, accented names etc, really needs to be tackled at the source by Invelos.

Right.  I don't understand the logic that finds reversing Japanese names alright, but not Korean names.  I think from a programming standpoint, it's easier to implement a naming order check box than any other alternative for a quick fix.  If that's the case, then it's better to have Family name in Last name field and Given name in First name field.
My Home Theater
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,201
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I don't deal with very many asian names, but what surfeur, Taro and xradman say, seems to make the most sense.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantMuckl
That's my common name.
Registered: April 9, 2009
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
[...] what surfeur, Taro and xradman say, seems to make the most sense.

Exactly.
 
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsynnerman
Take me with you. Please.
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 736
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Quoting xradman:
Quote:
Quoting Taro:
Quote:
We really need an official ruling and/or program change to finally tackle this issue. Here's keeping my fingers crossed.

In the mean time, when I profile Japanese discs with Japanese-only credits, I write the first name in the first field and the family name in the last field. That way I'm being somewhat consistent and if Ken does decide to apply the rules for western names to Asian names as well, perhaps with a program change like Surfeur suggested, then it's already filled in correctly.

But really, all problems related to Asian names, titles, accented names etc, really needs to be tackled at the source by Invelos.

Right.  I don't understand the logic that finds reversing Japanese names alright, but not Korean names.  I think from a programming standpoint, it's easier to implement a naming order check box than any other alternative for a quick fix.  If that's the case, then it's better to have Family name in Last name field and Given name in First name field.


There is a very legitimate reason: a huge number of Japanese films list the names in a Westernized manner (Given-Name Surname), while Korean films and Chinese films usually don't (using Surname Given-Name).  This, of course, applies to the situations where there are Westernized credits.
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
Registered: June 17, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
United States Posts: 1,328
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Quoting synnerman:
Quote:
Quoting xradman:
Quote:
Quoting Taro:
Quote:
We really need an official ruling and/or program change to finally tackle this issue. Here's keeping my fingers crossed.

In the mean time, when I profile Japanese discs with Japanese-only credits, I write the first name in the first field and the family name in the last field. That way I'm being somewhat consistent and if Ken does decide to apply the rules for western names to Asian names as well, perhaps with a program change like Surfeur suggested, then it's already filled in correctly.

But really, all problems related to Asian names, titles, accented names etc, really needs to be tackled at the source by Invelos.

Right.  I don't understand the logic that finds reversing Japanese names alright, but not Korean names.  I think from a programming standpoint, it's easier to implement a naming order check box than any other alternative for a quick fix.  If that's the case, then it's better to have Family name in Last name field and Given name in First name field.


There is a very legitimate reason: a huge number of Japanese films list the names in a Westernized manner (Given-Name Surname), while Korean films and Chinese films usually don't (using Surname Given-Name).  This, of course, applies to the situations where there are Westernized credits.

That has not been my experience.  If anything, most Japanese films I've seen do not have any English credits whatsoever.  Any English credits are in subtitles only and only for main cast/crew.  Korean films are about 1/2 when it comes to having concurrent English credits.  When English credits are present, more often than not, the romanized names are in Given name/Family name format in English and Family name/Given name in Korean.  HK films almost always have English/Chinese credits.  Those cast/crew with English names will list their names in Western manner (Tony Leung) whereas those with just Chinese names will often list their names in Asian manner.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsynnerman
Take me with you. Please.
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting xradman:
That has not been my experience.  If anything, most Japanese films I've seen do not have any English credits whatsoever.

That's why I said "This, of course, applies to the situations where there are Westernized credits."  The whole Romanized issue is completely separate from what I am talking about.

Japanese films that do come with Westernized credits are usually Given-Name//Surname, which is why we talk about Akira Kurosawa and Toshiro Mifune in the west, not Kurosawa Akira or Mifune Toshiro. 
Remember, I am talking about it from the Western perspective, because we can't handle the correct formatting of Asian characters within DVD Profiler.  We can only do it how we see it on screen.

I am a proponent of what's on the screen is how is we list it.  I'd be in favor of something like "click the checkbox next to the surname" fix that Surfeur mentioned (which we've all discussed in previous threads about this issue), but that requires a full program update.  Until a ruling comes down, it's going to be the Wild West.  I say we stick with what the screen says, but the truth is, many of us of have made up our minds on the issue long ago.  All we are doing is having the same exact arguments with no real resolution.
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
Registered: June 17, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
United States Posts: 1,328
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Quoting synnerman:
Quote:
That's why I said "This, of course, applies to the situations where there are Westernized credits."  The whole Romanized issue is completely separate from what I am talking about.

Japanese films that do come with Westernized credits are usually Given-Name//Surname, which is why we talk about Akira Kurosawa and Toshiro Mifune in the west, not Kurosawa Akira or Mifune Toshiro. 
Remember, I am talking about it from the Western perspective, because we can't handle the correct formatting of Asian characters within DVD Profiler.  We can only do it how we see it on screen.

I am a proponent of what's on the screen is how is we list it.  I'd be in favor of something like "click the checkbox next to the surname" fix that Surfeur mentioned (which we've all discussed in previous threads about this issue), but that requires a full program update.  Until a ruling comes down, it's going to be the Wild West.  I say we stick with what the screen says, but the truth is, many of us of have made up our minds on the issue long ago.  All we are doing is having the same exact arguments with no real resolution.


But this carries over to those Japanese movies that don't have English credits.  Let's take Seven Samurai or Yojimbo/Sanjuro for instance.  All three movies do not have any English credits, but I'll bet that you have Akira Kurosawa and Toshiro Mifune credited rather than Kurosawa Akira and Mifune Toshiro as they are in the onscreen credits.  How's this any different than arbitrarily parsing names to suit one's preconceived idea.
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 Last edited: by xradman
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsynnerman
Take me with you. Please.
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting xradman:
Quote:
Quoting synnerman:
Quote:
That's why I said "This, of course, applies to the situations where there are Westernized credits."  The whole Romanized issue is completely separate from what I am talking about.

Japanese films that do come with Westernized credits are usually Given-Name//Surname, which is why we talk about Akira Kurosawa and Toshiro Mifune in the west, not Kurosawa Akira or Mifune Toshiro. 
Remember, I am talking about it from the Western perspective, because we can't handle the correct formatting of Asian characters within DVD Profiler.  We can only do it how we see it on screen.

I am a proponent of what's on the screen is how is we list it.  I'd be in favor of something like "click the checkbox next to the surname" fix that Surfeur mentioned (which we've all discussed in previous threads about this issue), but that requires a full program update.  Until a ruling comes down, it's going to be the Wild West.  I say we stick with what the screen says, but the truth is, many of us of have made up our minds on the issue long ago.  All we are doing is having the same exact arguments with no real resolution.


But this carries over to those Japanese movies that don't have English credits.  Let's take Seven Samurai or Yojimbo/Sanjuro for instance.  All three movies do not have any English credits, but I'll bet that you have Akira Kurosawa and Toshiro Mifune credited rather than Kurosawa Akira and Mifune Toshiro as they are in the onscreen credits.  How's this any different than arbitrarily parsing names to suit one's preconceived idea.


But that's the problem: it comes back to the whole romanization issue that we've gone round and round and roundabout.  When there is no data on the screen (that we can actually capture in DVD Profiler), you are creating data that doesn't exist on screen.  That is my issue.  I prefer to deal with what I actually see on screen, and since I can't be proficient in three dozen languages, I need to go with what I can actually read.  This means that Japanese films are usually Given Name//Surname and Chinese films are Surname//Given Name.  I have around 400 Korean films and I would say that it is closer to 70% of those titles, that use Western credits, are in Surname//Given Name format.

But that's all I'm going to say about this.  This argument is years old and won't change until a full ruling is given or a program change is made.  It's just circular arguing at this point.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDarklyNoon
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Registered: May 8, 2007
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I think we will not be able to solve this matter until we get an official ruling on it.
I for myself, do not change the orders, I usually try to do it as synnerman does, cuz he worked on a lot of those asian profiles.

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