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Epiphany
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorPantheon
Registered: March 14, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United Kingdom Posts: 1,819
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This is something I’ve been thinking about for a while and have finally decided is best for me to do. I’m going to be leaving the Profiler community for an indeterminate length of time.
I will no longer participate in the forum or be contributing.

I am NOT being driven away by any one incident or specific user. This is simply the culmination of numerous events.

Generally speaking using Profiler doesn’t make me as happy as it used to. So while I have every intention of continuing to use the program it’s not out of some misguided sense of loyalty; it’s simply because I can’t be bothered to start using another program from scratch.

Here’s a few reasons why:
The Credited As system is a total pain in the rear end. Too much research involved which takes way too much of my time. Too many threads devoted to a broken system.

The Birth Year process is also a total nightmare. There will never come a time when we will find DOBs for all the people we need to. Once again it’s far too time consuming (if I’m spending hours locating DOBs that could be spent updating more profiles then the system is flawed IMO).

The rules still cause too many conflicts and differences of opinion in the forum which never get resolved. Invelos do not participate enough in these discussions to resolve them quickly; thereby fuelling conflict. The couple of minutes required of Invelos to resolve some of these rules issues would prevent so much bad feeling.

The inability to submit re-release information is a fatal flaw IMO – especially because as time goes by more and more stuff is re-released and none of it can be tracked properly using the online db.

Very few people ever say thank you anymore. I don’t contribute profiles to bolster my own contribution record or to inflate my sense of self-importance. I do it so others can benefit from the work I’m doing anyway. But...sometimes it’s nice to get a pat on the back. Too many users are content to sit back and let everyone else do the work (and I’m not referring to most forum members, because you are obviously more involved).

Which leads me to a conversation I recently had with my sister.
I was blowing off steam regarding all things Profiler and she asked me a simple question:
“Why do you bother?”
I attempted to explain to her that I used to enjoy the process of creating a profile and making sure it was the best I could make it and then letting others enjoy it too.
“How do you know they appreciate it?” she asked.
“Ummm,” was my eloquent reply.
“I couldn’t be bothered with all the stuff you do,” she continued. “I just want to know what DVDs I own and when I watched them, everything else is just stuffing. The program looks nice and that’s why I use it. I don’t care about all the other stuff.”
I attempted to explain that if all the users of Profiler felt like that we wouldn’t have a very good database.
“But everything you’ve told me says you don’t anyway.”
“Ummm.”
“You’re always telling me about all the things that don’t work properly. Maybe you should be more like me,” she smiled. “I enjoy using the program, because for me there is no baggage attached. I can use it in exactly the way I want and I don’t have to answer to anyone. Also, I’m positive that I’m in the majority.”
“That’s true,” I grudgingly admitted. “There are thousands of users and only a handful of those participate in the forum or contribute.”
“Well, there you go then.”

I’ve been thinking about this ever since and I can’t argue with her. She’s completely correct.

What does it matter if the forum members discuss Dividers or Studios or the common name for some obscure Sound Mixer; or whether a DOB is required for someone? It’s all totally pointless because the majority proportion of Profiler users will never know about those conversations. Not only will they be unaware of some forum decision, but they won’t follow it. And why should they?
Invelos writes and posts the contribution rules and ALL users have the right to follow those rules as written; so if some forum decision contradicts the rules these people won’t be aware of it. Therefore they won’t follow it which could lead to them getting lots of NO votes and subsequently not bothering to contribute again because they won’t understand why they’re getting shot down for following the rules.
But, even more importantly, I personally feel that most users don’t bother reading the rules anyway because they don’t contribute.
They use Profiler the way they want to use it. If they want to assign a common name of their choosing they do. If they want to maintain their Studios so that names are consistent they do. If they want to make up a DOB just to get the job done of separating cast/crew they do. But, even more importantly, they’re completely happy doing so.
I also feel that if you don’t contribute then you shouldn’t participate in discussions regarding contributions. Too many people have an opinion on how things should be done; but can’t actually be bothered to do those things themselves. So, they’ll make the process difficult for the rest of us but will still benefit from the work. It’s totally unfair and selfish IMO.

Also the online db is of absolutely no use to me and it never has been. I audit every title I own personally so it doesn’t matter if the profile is complete or empty. I also have never benefitted from the work of others while not giving back something in return. Therefore, I see no benefit to contributing at all – which is how most people think I would surmise.

I personally feel that the forum and the rules have gradually made contributing to the online database harder and less enjoyable...and as far as I can see the improvements are not worth the time and effort involved. Except for a brief period I have always contributed. I’ve adapted to the changes in the program and the rules and never, knowingly, submitted anything incorrectly; but it hasn’t been easy. In fact, it’s been more like work than a hobby; and that’s wrong.

Recently I upped my participation in the forums and, boy, do I regret that decision. Once again I got drawn into the toxicity and felt myself drowning. And, to cap everything off, I posted some comments about Skip that I would never have done a few months ago.
While I stand by what I said (because 10 years of experience brought me to my conclusions) the simple fact is I should NEVER have posted how I felt in an open forum. It was rude and unnecessary. It achieved nothing other than to vent my spleen and hurt someone. So, Skip, I apologise for saying what I did in the forum even though I stand by it (I realise that this is a back-handed apology, but it’s the best I can manage).
The fact that I felt frustrated and angry enough to resort to the very behaviour I abhor also tells me it’s time to leave the forums.

So, until further notice:
I will no longer contribute because I see no benefit in continuing to do so. I also feel that I may regain some of my enjoyment if I’m not having to jump through hoops so lazy and ungrateful people can benefit from what I do. Actually, point in fact, a while back I did a full audit on some child profiles. Someone cloned that information and posted it in the parent profile – and they didn’t have the decency to even say a thank you to me. It’s not much to say “I cloned User X’s work from UPC/EAN profile”.
The sad thing is I have absolutely no doubt that profiles I have audited fully and submitted will, over time, be slowly destroyed by users who don’t follow the rules. How do I know this: well a little over 3 years ago I finished a full audit of my films...in the last few weeks I have re-audited just 140 of these for 3.6 crew (out of thousands) and I was disgusted at how many had been corrupted with IMDB data – but the contribution notes stated “changes taken from film credits”. So, once again, I think: Why do I bother if a bunch of liars are simply going to destroy everything I’ve done?

I will no longer participate or visit the forum on a regular basis because it’s not an enjoyable experience. Everyone (including myself) who has ever contributed to the atmosphere in the forum should be ashamed of themselves. It’s meant to be fun people! Not torture.

My intention is to not return to contributions or the forum until such time that I feel that the program issues are resolved and more user friendly, and until Invelos have called in an exorcist for the forum. I have contacts within the community who, I’m sure, will let me know when/if things change.

Lastly I would like to thank all the people who do take the time to thank other users for their hard work and whose presence in the forum is a benefit.
 Last edited: by Pantheon
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,479
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We shall miss you as I think you are a guy who really tried to be positive in all circumstances, but I understand your reasons as I share much of what you wrote.

Though I have not yet taken exactly the same decision as you, I have much reduced my participation to the live of this site. I have no bad feelings since I learned not to give importance to insults I regularly received for saying what I think, and my decision is not at all related to the moderation threads that inflamed the forum those last days. But I'm more and more disagreeing with the way the database is managed, by Invelos, but also by the most voicy users that generally Ken choose to follow.

From my point of view, the main interest of the database is to give users who download a profile data that will be useful for them : data that can be filtered, sorted, and linked in a correct manner : just to illustrate that, not have a different list for movies with Gong Li and movies with Li Gong.

At present time, the database is managed to avoid to contributors to get no votes on their contributions. Rules are made to avoid as much as possible any incertainty, even if this must be done without any respect of what is the reality, in normal life. People now spend their time to transform correct names to names existing nowhere (not even in credits), and the same users ask now for a "parsing standard" that will allow them to parse in the same way Kristin Scott Thomas, Jean Paul Belmondo, or Philip Seymour Hoffmann. Unfortunately, those three examples have three different solutions, and a standard will create two wrong entries. And, also unfortunately, the reality of the complexity of thousands of movies and names in different languages, from different periods of movies history, makes that twenty (or even one hundred) pages of rules will never be enough to avoid incessant nit-picking between users that cannot agree on their interpretation.

In my opinion,online database is no more helpful for users that download profiles, it's just a hobby for some of Invelos users, that prefer enter fictitious data that will not get a no vote, than make a minimum of research to feed the online with correct data. We are on a game that tries to reproduce in text what a screenshot would do better, but losing the interest of text data : database functions as sorting, filtering and linking.

Contributors have to know that their data is believed to be correct by most of users, and entering Kristin/Scott/Thomas is not better than writing in Wikipedia the story of Joan of Arc telling that she was killed by Custer at Little Big Horn.

This is my opinion. I'm not ashamed of what I ever wrote (and even do not hide myself behind an avatar) and will not change my mind (I mean the necessity to enter correct data to have a useful database). I do not know if what I think is followed by 10%, 50% or 90% of silent users, but I'm in a large minority among people who give their opinion on the forums. And there is no interest for me to bore people who see me only as a thread hijacker, specially when I give my opinion on the common name of an actor in a thread which was opened to find the common name of that actor.
Images from movies
 Last edited: by surfeur51
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorVoltaire53
Missed again!
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United Kingdom Posts: 2,293
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Very sorry to hear that, Pantheon - your contributions have been consitently excellent and your opinions always thoughtful and considered... but more than that, I'll just miss you not being around as to me you feel like a friend I've just never met in person.

Stay happy and enjoy your extra time with your DVDs/BDs/family/other!
It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorStaid S Barr
Registered: Oct 16, 2003
Registered: May 9, 2007
Netherlands Posts: 1,536
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Contributors have to know that their data is believed to be correct by most of users, and entering Kristin/Scott/Thomas is not better than writing in Wikipedia the story of Joan of Arc telling that she was killed by Custer at Little Big Horn.

Would that be Joan/of/Arc? Or Jeanne//d'Arc credited as...?     

But kidding aside, I can understand the frustration with the forums, but fortunately it is possible to use DVDP and even to contribute while ignoring what goes on here.
Hans
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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Neill:

I think you know I share many of your frustrations and i hope that you will not stay away too long. I do agree that, from my point of view some of the things ken has addressed in the program, while ignoring issues such as re-releases, the problems created by the CLT failure and so forth. I will say I am most disappointed that Ken as you said will not take a few minutes to weigh in, this would prevent much of bad feelings we are experiencing. But I thin k the single most troubling thing i am seeing are the changes which are being made  which are ill-advised.

Hope to see you back soon, pal.
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributordbisping
Registered: March 21, 2007
United Kingdom Posts: 103
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Pantheon, I have to agree 100% with Voltaire I am Very sorry to see you step back from posting and contributing, your contributions have always been to the highest level and consistent in their high quality. It is a sad time to lose your valuable work particularly on the UK Locality.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorreybr
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Norway Posts: 906
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Sad to see you leave Pantheon. Your contributions have been very much appreciated and while I don't agree with everything you post, your arguments have always been well thought out

Quoting Pantheon:
Quote:

Very few people ever say thank you anymore. I don’t contribute profiles to bolster my own contribution record or to inflate my sense of self-importance. I do it so others can benefit from the work I’m doing anyway. But...sometimes it’s nice to get a pat on the back.


Just wanted to quote this part as it is something I agree very much on. A small thank in your yes vote or a green arrow on the contribution notes are much appreciated if the contributor has worked hard on a contribution. As you say, it's nice to get a pat on the back sometimes and motivates for more contributions.

The colour of her eyes, were the colour of insanity
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorlyonsden5
Hello old friends!
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Posts: 2,372
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDarklyNoon
No Godz, No Masterz
Registered: May 8, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Germany Posts: 1,945
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Really sad to see you leave.
Your contributions always were excellent ones.

I am also fully with you on the BYs and the Credited as system.

But opposing to you, I simply do not care much about it, I hardly ever use the credited as system, I hardly ever look for BYs, I also never contribute full crew, cuz I do not care about them either.

I just contribute what i think is important and let the community hopefully benefit from it.

I think the two main reasons more and more people are leaving here is how Ken is handling those forums and that the rules are getting more obnoxious and complicated on a weekly basis.

This whole program should be kept a bit more simple, not so immensly detailed in everything, the more details, the more rules, the more frustration.
Just my 2 cents.

Hopefully we will see you back someday.

enjoy life
Donnie
www.tvmaze.com
 Last edited: by DarklyNoon
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTaro
Registered: February 23, 2009
Reputation: High Rating
Belgium Posts: 1,580
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Really sad to see you go, Pantheon. And I'll add that I definitely recognize many of the issues you bring up.

In fact, I don't want to sound negative but it does boggle my mind why Invelos does listen more to the most active contributors (which are really a small fraction of the users) and try to come up with meaningful solutions to the problems contributors face?

The program itself is a very strong base, I think, but part of the strength of DVDP also comes from the contributions ... which are submitted by volunteers in a sense who do this in their own free time, for no return (monetary or other). Imagine that small fraction of users would go away, then the online would effectively grow stale and come to a halt.

I don't say that Invelos automatically needs to implement every idea that every contributor has (that would be impossible anyway), but if a large part of the contributing community says that something is wrong with the current CLT or way to enter credits, I don't understand why Invelos doesn't take that to heart 

Thanks for everything you've contributed!
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 Last edited: by Taro
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
Registered Sept 5 2005
Registered: May 20, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 2,934
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I have always enjoyed the conversations we have had, and many have made me rethink possibilties.  I may have not ever personally thanked you, but your work has always been appreciated.

If Profiler is not bringing any enjoyment to you, then you are right, it is time to stand back and reevaluate.

Please return soon, your presence will be missed.

And for the record

THANX

Charlie
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDarklyNoon
No Godz, No Masterz
Registered: May 8, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Germany Posts: 1,945
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Quoting Taro:
Quote:
Really sad to see you go, Pantheon. And I'll add that I definitely recognize many of the issues you bring up.

In fact, I don't want to sound negative but it does boggle my mind why Invelos does listen more to the most active contributors (which are really a small fraction of the users) and try to come up with meaningful solutions to the problems contributors face?

The program itself is a very strong base, I think, but part of the strength of DVDP also comes from the contributions ... which are submitted by volunteers in a sense who do this in their own free time, for no return (monetary or other). Imagine that small fraction of users would go away, then the online would effectively grow stale and come to a halt.

I don't say that Invelos automatically needs to implement every idea that every contributor has (that would be impossible anyway), but if a large part of the contributing community says that something is wrong with the current CLT or way to enter credits, I don't understand why Invelos doesn't take that to heart 

Thanks for everything you've contributed!


That is why so many are frustrated Taro, they do not agree with what Ken is deciding, and you are definitely right without the volunteering of US, the contributors, this program loses its most important part, the database.

BTW, glad to see you back here Taro

and thx again for all what you have done, PANTHEON 

Donnie
www.tvmaze.com
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 17,334
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Sorry to see you leave... it is always sad to see a contributing member decide to stop.

We don't always agree on everything... but you hit on a few things that I definitely agree with here.

Wish you the best of luck and hope you find peace of mind by stepping away from all this.
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKatatonia
Retired Profiler
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 20,111
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Sorry to see you leave too Pantheon. You just gotta kind of weigh the balance here sometimes between the good and the bad.
...and sometimes the ugly too.
Corey
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAstrakan
Registered: Feb 12, 2000
Registered: March 28, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Canada Posts: 1,299
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Quoting Pantheon:
Quote:
Very few people ever say thank you anymore...

I know this is not the only reason you're taking a break, nor is it as simplistic as the part I'm quoting might lead someone to believe, but I just thought I'd voice my philosophy when it comes to this part of it.

If I don't agree with a rule I don't follow the rule, but also don't contribute it. Only when my way of looking at things are on par with the rules do I actually contribute data to the online. And when I do contribute, I have a personal rule that says I only ever contribute something once.

Meaning, if a cover isn't liked by the community, or if my interpretation of a rule differs from the community, or if a submission is rejected for whatever reason... well, that's it, I'm not going to re-work something that I am personally happy with. The work I did is still in my local to be enjoyed by me. If the community and/or screeners don't want it, that's no skin off my nose.

The end result is that the work I do, I do for myself. I contribute that work because I see no reason not to. If others can benefit from my work, that's great! But I'm not going to do a bunch of work that follows the rules precisely, submit it, and then change it all to suit my own preferences. It's admirable when someone do do that, but as far as I'm concerned that would only lead to my resentment of the rules and those who benefit from work I have no use for.

Perhaps this kind of philosophy is selfish and counter to the overall methodology of DVD Profiler, but I found it's better for my mental health and the database still benefits from some of the work I do.

edited to add: I just realized I hadn't really connected the above with the quote.    My point was simply that personally I don't really care if people thank me for the work I do, simply because I didn't do the work for anyone but myself in the first place.
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You've got questions? You've got answers? Take the DVD Profiler Wiki for a spin.
 Last edited: by Astrakan
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAlien Redrum
Proudly blocked by liars.
Registered: August 23, 2008
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 1,656
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Wow, I didn't think it was possible, but this forum just managed to suck even more than it has in the past few weeks.

Pantheon, while we didn't have much back and forth (in the good way or the bad way), I've always appreciated your presence on the forum and your submissions in the database, and I'm sorry to see you go.

I hope you come back in a better, happier mind.
Reviewer, HorrorTalk.com

"I also refuse to document CLT results and I pay my bills to avoid going to court." - Sam, keeping it real, yo.
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