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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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To be a bitmore specific.One side yes go for it. And I amsimply saying hold on,it's outside the Rules right now and factually it is.I alsosaid with some sort of reasonable parameters I have no problem, but that does not for my part include Additional Voices for the reasons I have outlined.

So in a nutshell one side says hell yes...do it and the other is simply slow down...not today...tomorrow maybe.
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,201
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Quoting J68:
Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
I believe the portion of my post that you quoted, along with the portion you omitted, answers that question...because they aren't credited with a role.


So, the thrust of your argument is that "Parade Participant" is a role and that they should be included whether or not they actually appeared in the film - because the section they have been listed in does not give me any confidence that they actually appeared at all.

That is, indeed, the thrust of my argument.  When you look at the 'standard' film credits, do you ensure that everybody listed is actually in the film?  I know I don't.
Quote:
Even if you can see a band playing, how do you know its the one that's been named?
Why do you attribute the descriptor "Parade Participant" with a role, when its a description of an activity they undertook rather than a role they played?

I don't need to know it is the one named.  All I need to know is that there was a group credit of 'Parade Participants' and a parade was featured in the film...if I am being honest, all I really need to know is that there was a group credit, the fact that it was featured in the film is just icing on the cake.
Quote:
In this instance, you are assuming that the "credits" refer to entities who appeared in a film based on a description of an activity (not a role) that they took part in, which might or might not have been in the final print.

I am not assuming anything.  The credit is there, in the first post, for all to see.

It seems to me that you are applying standards based only on where they are credited.  If you see a credit of 'Cop on Corner', do you make sure it is refering to the cop that you saw on the corner?  How do you know his scene was included in the final print?  We have one simple standard...are they credited or not?  If they are, we enter them.  If they aren't, and we want to enter them, we have to prove they were actually in the film.  Yes, the rules define two types of film credits, standard and nonstandard, but they never tell us to leave out credited cast based on where they are credited.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMerrik
NON-STEPFORD PROFILER
Registered: September 30, 2008
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
We have one simple standard...are they credited or not?  If they are, we enter them.


Seems so simple. I'm not sure why it isn't. Now we have to take into account where they're credited during the closing credits as well?

They're there. They're in the credits. They even have a role attached to them. This issue doesn't get much simpler in my eyes. They're part of the cast.

Whoever raised the original topic, enter them as such. I'm 99.9% sure the contribution will go through, even if you get that one no vote.
The night is calling. And it whispers to me soflty come and play.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantJ68
Registered: September 11, 2010
Posts: 42
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
It seems to me that you are applying standards based only on where they are credited.

Yes.  If there is a list of credited actors, it appears eminently sensible to expect all the actors to be credited there.  I can see no reasonable explanation being proffered as to why a set of participants would be given credits as actors based on their appearance in the end credits listed under a casting agency.

Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
If you see a credit of 'Cop on Corner', do you make sure it is refering to the cop that you saw onthe corner?  How do you know his scene was included in the final print?  We have one simple standard...are they credited or not?

Now, now Let's not have any of that   If you're saying you have an example of the role of 'Cop on Corner' being listed in the credits in a similar way to the activity given under the casting agency in the credits, then please share.

Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
If they are, we enter them.  If they aren't, and we want to enter them, we have to prove they were actually in the film.  Yes, the rules define two types of film credits, standard and nonstandard, but they never tell us to leave out credited cast based on where they are credited.

If the role 'Cop on Corner' - BTW, bad example, when I'd said "Parade Participant" was an activity descriptor and not a role  - was listed in the end credits with the other acting roles, then I would have little reason to doubt it, and what doubts I had wouldn't be worth mentioning.

Why would stunt driver be any different to "parade participant"?  They both describe an activity, not a role.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMerrik
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Registered: September 30, 2008
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Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
  • Stop responding to the dissent - You won't change their opinion. Be confident that Invelos rarely adopts extreme views; therefore, there's not much need to concern oneself with outlier opinions.


  • I like this. I like this very much.

    Just imagine the threads we'd have if people stopped responding to the "dissent". Sure there'd be a ridiculous post every once in awhile, but there wouldn't be thirty responses to that one ridiculous post. Coherent & helpful conversations could take place. What a thought!
    The night is calling. And it whispers to me soflty come and play.
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
    Don't be discommodious
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    United States Posts: 21,610
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    Actually stunt people provbably have a better case than this groupofpeople, since they are after all almost always, if not always listed under the cast heading.
    ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
    CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
    Outta here

    Billy Video
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
    Don't be discommodious
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    United States Posts: 21,610
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    Forum Moderator: Removed
    ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
    CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
    Outta here

    Billy Video
     Last edited: by Forum Moderator
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
    Registered Sept 5 2005
    Registered: May 20, 2007
    Reputation: High Rating
    United States Posts: 2,934
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    Quoting J68:
    Quote:
    Quoting TheMadMartian:
    Quote:
    I believe the portion of my post that you quoted, along with the portion you omitted, answers that question...because they aren't credited with a role.


    So, the thrust of your argument is that "Parade Participant" is a role and that they should be included whether or not they actually appeared in the film - because the section they have been listed in does not give me any confidence that they actually appeared at all. 


    This is not a description of an activity, it is a description of one (or a group) who took part in the activity

    Participant n - One that participates, shares, or takes part in something

    so yes, it is a role (group role and should follow group rules)

    Quote:

    Even if you can see a band playing, how do you know its the one that's been named?
    Why do you attribute the descriptor "Parade Participant" with a role, when its a description of an activity they undertook rather than a role they played?


    With today effects and makeup, I can't guarantee that anybody participated in a film.  I can only go by what the credits tell me.  If I have to prove that a credited person(group) was actually in a film, the cast lists would become very thin.

    Quote:
    In this instance, you are assuming that the "credits" refer to entities who appeared in a film based on a description of an activity (not a role) that they took part in, which might or might not have been in the final print.


    do to my previous statements, It is not describing and activity (running done the street), It is describing the people that that "participated" in that activity (man running down the street).  And because of the way DVDProfiler obtains it credits (from the screen), I put "Parade Participants" into the cast list, in the proper order they appear in the credits.

    Charlie
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMerrik
    NON-STEPFORD PROFILER
    Registered: September 30, 2008
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    Quoting Winston Smith:
    Quote:
    Also very undemocratic.


    Says the guy that states everyone should listen to him (and only him) because he's the only one who knows what he's talking about? 

    You wanna play these games Skip? I can call you out on blatant hypocrisy anytime you want. You actually make it entirely simple. 

    "Dissent" probably isn't the right word. Nonsense would be a much better word to use in this case.

    Back to our regularly scheduled programming folks!

    They're in the credits. They have a role. I'm still not sure why this is an issue. Because of WHERE they are? Who cares? They're still there. It's as simple as that.
    The night is calling. And it whispers to me soflty come and play.
     Last edited: by Merrik
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAlien Redrum
    Proudly blocked by liars.
    Registered: August 23, 2008
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    Quoting Merrik:
    Quote:
    They're in the credits. They have a role. I'm still not sure why this is an issue. Because of WHERE they are? Who cares? They're still there. It's as simple as that.


    Perhaps it's simple as that on any other forum on the internet. Not here. 
    Reviewer, HorrorTalk.com

    "I also refuse to document CLT results and I pay my bills to avoid going to court." - Sam, keeping it real, yo.
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
    Don't be discommodious
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    United States Posts: 21,610
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    Forum Moderator: Removed
    ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
    CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
    Outta here

    Billy Video
     Last edited: by Forum Moderator
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMerrik
    NON-STEPFORD PROFILER
    Registered: September 30, 2008
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    Quoting Alien Redrum:
    Quote:
    Quoting Merrik:
    Quote:
    They're in the credits. They have a role. I'm still not sure why this is an issue. Because of WHERE they are? Who cares? They're still there. It's as simple as that.


    Perhaps it's simple as that on any other forum on the internet. Not here. 


    Weird how the simple act of typing a web address can just create completely different logic from anywhere else in the world, isn't it? 
    The night is calling. And it whispers to me soflty come and play.
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMerrik
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    Registered: September 30, 2008
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    Quoting CharlieM:
    Quote:
    Quoting J68:
    Quote:
    Quoting TheMadMartian:
    Quote:
    I believe the portion of my post that you quoted, along with the portion you omitted, answers that question...because they aren't credited with a role.


    So, the thrust of your argument is that "Parade Participant" is a role and that they should be included whether or not they actually appeared in the film - because the section they have been listed in does not give me any confidence that they actually appeared at all. 


    This is not a description of an activity, it is a description of one (or a group) who took part in the activity

    Participant n - One that participates, shares, or takes part in something

    so yes, it is a role (group role and should follow group rules)

    Quote:

    Even if you can see a band playing, how do you know its the one that's been named?
    Why do you attribute the descriptor "Parade Participant" with a role, when its a description of an activity they undertook rather than a role they played?


    With today effects and makeup, I can't guarantee that anybody participated in a film.  I can only go by what the credits tell me.  If I have to prove that a credited person(group) was actually in a film, the cast lists would become very thin.

    Quote:
    In this instance, you are assuming that the "credits" refer to entities who appeared in a film based on a description of an activity (not a role) that they took part in, which might or might not have been in the final print.


    do to my previous statements, It is not describing and activity (running done the street), It is describing the people that that "participated" in that activity (man running down the street).  And because of the way DVDProfiler obtains it credits (from the screen), I put "Parade Participants" into the cast list, in the proper order they appear in the credits.

    Charlie


    This is a great response Charlie. Very well said and thought-out.

    Also kudos to J68 as well for knowing how to have a conversation with someone who has opposing views (at least as we've seen thus far... don't go messing it up Mr!!!  ).
    The night is calling. And it whispers to me soflty come and play.
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDragonfire
    Registered: September 3, 2007
    Posts: 163
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    I've read through the rules, and if there is something in there saying that someone has to be listed in a specific spot in the credits to be included in a contribution, I can't find it.  Of course, I wasn't one of the select few that helped create the rules, so I guess I'm just too dense to understand what is in the rules now.  - That was sarcasm, just in case anyone wondered.

    Is that part of the rules, that no one else can find, written in some sort of secret code?  Do I need a super secret decorder ring to be able to read all the rules?
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCharlieM
    Registered Sept 5 2005
    Registered: May 20, 2007
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    I must agree with Tiger

    Quote:

    Cast

    For the purposes of this section we define "standard" film credits as those where all credited actors involved are listed at the end of the film - defined here as the "end credits". The section details both the actor’s Name and the Role that they played in the film. The credits may be listed "in order of appearance", "alphabetical order" or in an order of importance decided by the filmmakers. Some actors may be credited a second time in either credits at either the opening or close of the film.

    For any film with standard credits, take the actor information from the end credits only, with names and roles listed exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited.  Exception: If the credit information is entirely capitalized, use standard capitalization rules instead.

    Use the "Credited As" field where the actor's name differs from the credited name.

    If a film does not have standard credits, use the following rules:

        * If a film has actors listed in the opening credits, which are not listed in the end credits, add these to the list in DVD Profiler before those taken from the end credits.
        * If a film has no end credits, but does have actors credited elsewhere, enter the actors from those credits.
        * If there are no credits, the film's official site may be used as a source, as long as the inclusion does not violate the site's published policy (if any).
        * If an actor is credited by name but does not have an associated role, you may use the film itself, or another source to identify the role. However, mass copy from a third party commercial database which violates their stated usage license is not allowed. In each case, list Actor’s names and roles (when given) exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited.


    In addition to the above, the following rules should be followed:

        * For animated films or voice-only roles, use the "Voice" checkbox.
        * If puppeteers are included in the end credits include them and append (puppeteer) at the end of the role.
        * If an actor name is only a first name or stage name enter it entirely in the first name field. Examples are Cher, Madonna, Cedric the Entertainer & Queen Latifah.
        * If an actor's credited name includes a nickname, highlighted by ", ’ or ( ), list it in the middle name field. For example John "JS" Smith, John ‘JS’ Smith or John (JS) Smith
        * Articles (such as de, de la, di, von) are entered in the appropriate name field along with the name that they precede. Use the film credits to determine whether the actor capitalizes this article or not.
        * Uncredited actors may be listed in alphabetical order following all credited actors. Use the "Uncredited" checkbox to indicate these. Uncredited actors are not required entries.
        * Do not translate foreign language role names to the language of the locality unless a translation is provided in the film credits.
        * Do not include artificial actor entries to act as separators between cast lists. (e.g. "--JAPANESE CAST--"), instead use the Divider feature for this.
        * Cast credited "Himself", "As Himself", or a variation should be entered normally with the actor's name, and with a role of "Himself" or "Herself" as appropriate.
        * Certain name standardizations are performed during contribution. e.g. John Smith Jr becomes John Smith, Jr.

    Do not list actors and crew who appear only in special features, or whose scenes were deleted from the main feature, even if they appear in special features.


    Nowhere in this section can I find the words that all actors are listed "together", only that they are listed at the end of the film. 
    Quote:

    For the purposes of this section we define "standard" film credits as those where all credited actors involved are listed at the end of the film - defined here as the "end credits"


    Show me here where is says they must be together.

    What ever may have been intended, did not translate to the rules, and thankfully so, if what Skip says is true.

    Charlie
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantJ68
    Registered: September 11, 2010
    Posts: 42
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    Hi Charlie,
    So I say "Parade Participant" refers to an activity and you say it refers to a person who took part in an activity.  I can't follow your leap from participant being a person who took part in an activity to one who played a role in the film (role being a part played by an actor in the film).

    If they'd been listed with all the other actors, then I'd say yes, they should be credited.  Just because an agency is credited with supplying "extras" doesn't necessarily mean those extras are deserving of an acting credit. 

    If they'd played the role of "Parade Participant" why would they not be credited with the rest of the actors?  Someone, please answer that simple question.

    If all they did was take part in a parade, why should they be given acting honours that were clearly not given in the film?  Another answer here would be useful

    I've had a look at the end credits and can see that the credits have a distinct Cast and Crew section, with the "Parade Participants" clearly being listed in the crew section; which means they are not listed under the cast section.  They were not part of the cast, they are credited as part of the crew.

    Regards.
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