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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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New Actor/Crew Linking System |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting goodguy: Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
Also, another thing I don't like about the current system is that I can't change a common name easily. I have to edit all of the profiles for that name rather than just changing the common name. If you just change the name in your system, you can mess up profiles that were "as credited".
While I voted to keep the current system, this is one thing Ken has backwards. The primary name entered should be the "Credited As" name, then you pick a common name if necessary for linking. I think TomGaines' CCViewer does (or at least did) it that way, and it is far more logical.
As many of you know, my Name Variants Plugin makes the job of changing common names and retaining the "Credited As" name quite easy, but it is only intended for similar names, not for cases where an actor sometimes uses a completely different name.
The proposition made by dee1959jay is something that, for example, IMDb does. And it is a good procedure, if you have algorithms in place to prioritize appearances by popularity (again, as IMDb does). A simple complete list of appearances isn't good enough to aid users in picking the correct person. It also makes little sense with the profile-based (as opposed to movie-based) way credits are handled in DVDProfiler.
I don't want to spoil the fun of tossing around ideas for a better linking system, but I haven't seen anyone analyzing the impact on usability, performance and data size those ideas would have, not to mention how well it would integrate with the way contributions and updates are currently processed. No, I haven't done it either, because I don't have the time and it is not my job. But I'm not convinced that those ideas are superior to the way it is currently done. Some very interesting points. I will say this, I've estimated that it will take me approximately 200 hours to completely link my 2400+ profiles. The only problem is, that assumes that my database remains static and I don't add any more titles. Now, once I complete this project, I effectively have to do full cast/crew audits for every title I add thereafter because the online data is only going to mess up what I have. I'm not sure what the best alternative system is, but the one we currently have is not only ineffective today, but will remain ineffective based on the nature of all our individual user databases. As long as the model is for every individual to maintain their own master cast/crew database, then the only way complete linking can occur is individually. All well and good, but now those who work towards that goal are further cut off from the online. Frankly, that can't be good for anybody. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting goodguy: Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
Also, another thing I don't like about the current system is that I can't change a common name easily. I have to edit all of the profiles for that name rather than just changing the common name. If you just change the name in your system, you can mess up profiles that were "as credited".
While I voted to keep the current system, this is one thing Ken has backwards. The primary name entered should be the "Credited As" name, then you pick a common name if necessary for linking. I think TomGaines' CCViewer does (or at least did) it that way, and it is far more logical.
As many of you know, my Name Variants Plugin makes the job of changing common names and retaining the "Credited As" name quite easy, but it is only intended for similar names, not for cases where an actor sometimes uses a completely different name.
The proposition made by dee1959jay is something that, for example, IMDb does. And it is a good procedure, if you have algorithms in place to prioritize appearances by popularity (again, as IMDb does). A simple complete list of appearances isn't good enough to aid users in picking the correct person. It also makes little sense with the profile-based (as opposed to movie-based) way credits are handled in DVDProfiler.
I don't want to spoil the fun of tossing around ideas for a better linking system, but I haven't seen anyone analyzing the impact on usability, performance and data size those ideas would have, not to mention how well it would integrate with the way contributions and updates are currently processed. No, I haven't done it either, because I don't have the time and it is not my job. But I'm not convinced that those ideas are superior to the way it is currently done. Hmmmm an interesting idea, Mathias. If I understand your suggestion correctly, this would make the linking system a totally local issue would it not. You could select NameA as your linking name, someone else could pick NameB, I could select NameC and so forth. There would not even be any need for sharing data. Hmmmmmmm, if I follow you correctly, I think I like it. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: December 10, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 3,004 |
| | Posted: | | | | Any attempt to make linking local only will essentially make it useless. While the weirdos here might actually enjoy entering data, the shared database is one of the major selling points of the software. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Ace:
As the online functions at this time, I would have to disagree and it seems a natural solution to numerous other issues. We have no search ability for Cast/Cerew through the online, that is a purely local issue. we have already seen the drawbacks of a system of linkling which is derived from shared data. What relevance would it be for you to know that I link John Wayne to Marion Morrison for instance...none that i can think off, that would be my call, it would have no relevance to the Online nor any other user, if i understand what Mathias has described properly.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: February 23, 2009 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote:
Any attempt to make linking local only will essentially make it useless. While the weirdos here might actually enjoy entering data, the shared database is one of the major selling points of the software. Couldn't agree more with you. I think for at least a big part of the community, the whole concept of the online database is to save time and not having to re-enter all the data yourself. If the linking system doesn't work online, then that's basically a big advantage that DVDP should have over other software (like Movie Collector) going up in smoke. | | | Blu-ray collection
DVD collection
My Games
My Trophies | | | | Last edited: by Taro |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
Ace:
As the online functions at this time, I would have to disagree and it seems a natural solution to numerous other issues. We have no search ability for Cast/Cerew through the online, that is a purely local issue. we have already seen the drawbacks of a system of linkling which is derived from shared data. What relevance would it be for you to know that I link John Wayne to Marion Morrison for instance...none that i can think off, that would be my call, it would have no relevance to the Online nor any other user, if i understand what Mathias has described properly.
Skip It's not about making the on-line linking work; the on-line database is useless unless you download the data to your local database. The beauty of a community effort like this is the community knowledge. Not everybody using this application will know that John Wayne and Marion Morrison are one and the same person. Those that do possess that knowledge can submit that information to the on-line database so that the rest of the community can share in it. Setting up a local only solution would be useless because I don't need a linking system at all to find all profiles in which a person appears where I already know all the names they use; I simply use the filtering system and check all of them. The value of contributing linking to the online has nothing to do with "personal preference" and everything to do with capitalizing on the collective knowledge of the community. | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | While, I do not care for how Ace expressed himself, he does have a valid point.
The shared DB is the major selling point of the program.
I must agree with goodguy, as long as we are profiling DVD's and not profiling movies, the linking system is problematic at best. I thnk there is a solution that does not have to be only local, and I would be very much in favor of a common system that was implemented properly.
Any linking system, is going to be user intensive. It will require the research by the user to properly link. I do believe, that if a person wants to only enter "AS Credited" data, he should be allowed to do that, and allow the people that want to do the research, do the linking. There are enough people in the community that enjoy that type of research.
I feel tat if we keep it a local only system, we are doing the community a disservice, after all the whole idea is to share our work...
IMO |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | Fully agree, Charlie. If every user would have to re-invent the wheel for him- or herself, DVDP would lose one of its strong (I hesitate to use the word "unique") selling points. |
| | Registered: February 23, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
It's not about making the on-line linking work; the on-line database is useless unless you download the data to your local database.
The beauty of a community effort like this is the community knowledge. Not everybody using this application will know that John Wayne and Marion Morrison are one and the same person. Those that do possess that knowledge can submit that information to the on-line database so that the rest of the community can share in it.
Setting up a local only solution would be useless because I don't need a linking system at all to find all profiles in which a person appears where I already know all the names they use; I simply use the filtering system and check all of them.
The value of contributing linking to the online has nothing to do with "personal preference" and everything to do with capitalizing on the collective knowledge of the community. Exactly. The whole point of online submission is to give users to import the knowledge of the community into their local database and use it immediately in an efficient way. Now, I after downloading profiles I still need to make a lot of manual adaptations to make the local linking work. The whole idea of DVDP was to let users submit their data so others can enjoy using it, at least, that's what I think. The current broken linking system takes away a lot of that appeal for many users I believe. When I started using DVDP, I was under the impression that for downloaded profiles, linking would be automatic. It was a pretty hard return to firm earth when I realized I had to manually check and correct links locally. | | | Blu-ray collection
DVD collection
My Games
My Trophies |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,819 |
| | Posted: | | | | I think Hal's idea is very interesting - what I'm more interested in, though, is Ken's thoughts on the idea. I mean, if Ken states it's not feasible, then this discussion is kinda pointless (although still worth discussing!!).
I've always been a firm supporter of making Credited As a local only feature - simply because I feel it causes too many problems and arguments in the forum. Besides, (and I know this is a very unpopular viewpoint...) why should the minority do all the work while the rest of the users sit back and do nothing? No matter how the Credited As system works there will only ever be a very small amount of users doing all the work.
I'd be more inclined to be in agreement if those users that do the work (such as TIM) get some form of recognition for it. Too often the people that do the work get no thanks whatsoever from other users.
As stated I do know my view isn't popular - but I also am a firm believer in giving credit where it's due and not praising people for doing sod-all!
Whatever systems is initiated by Ken I'm more than willing to give it a try! | | | | Last edited: by Pantheon |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | I am not disagreeing with the fact that the shared data concept is one of our biggest strong points. However, as we have already seen when it comes to Cast/Crew data, users not following the rules, old data which has not yet been located and corrected, or even users who believe that something is better than NOTHING, or good enough is good enough, can make a total hash out of the data we are trying generate. The Rules are not difficult unless one wishes to make them so or try to get ahead of the program's abilities. It is shocking to me to see some of things that even some Rules Team members are willing to accept for a given contribution.
I praise Tim for doing the work that he does, I can't praise him for modifying every copy in the database based only a copy he possesses, though I think he means well, we also KNOW beyond a doubt that Credits are not always universal across all copies or one version to another. This is only causing a different variation of the "old Intervocative data" problem which has played such a big role in making a mess of the CLT results, and it will take years to straighten it out.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 2,337 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote:
"WARNING. There are several cast and/or crew members that have been credited by this name. The database currently contains:
a) John Doe birth year 1 or unique key 1:
acted in the following movies: X, Y and Z
b) John Doe birth year 2 or unique key 2:
acted in the following movies: A, B and C
c) John Doe birth year 3 or unique key 3:
was a sound editor in the following movies: D and E
Which one do you wish to enter?
x a)
x b)
x c)
x Don't know."
In case the user chooses the latter, the entry would go into a pool of names (along with the movie title in question) for which the correct birth year or unique key still needs to be established.
Could something like this work? +1 |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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