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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Using dividers for song titles in crew contributions |
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| Registered: March 15, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting northbloke:
Quote:
I still see no arguments that explain why a group of song-writers aren't a logical grouping of crew.
Better yet: I still see no arguments that explain why one song-writer is a logical grouping of crew. If there was only one song writer on the profile you'd maybe have a point, but the example given has 3 or 4 different songs, some with one writer and some with two, so it makes sense to have a group of one for consistency. Quote:
Additionally, if that's the argument, then why don't we enter six sound editors using a group divider? Surely a group of six sound editors (one credit in header form with six names below it) is a "logical grouping" as well? That's not the same thing, we're not putting the credit into the divider, we're putting the song title there. The credit is under the divider where it belongs. Edit: I missed Charlie's excellent post. He says it much better than I. | | | | Last edited: by northbloke |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,733 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
If there was a heading to it like Sound Services provided by XYZ, you bet. Yes, but simply because the rules tell us to: "If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name." They don't say anything about using dividers to list song titles. So I don't see the connection. Quote:
Just because there are 6 executive producers does not a group make. I agree with you, of course, but just for the sake of argument: why not, exactly? Because 6 "Soldiers" in the cast, let's even say those 6 executive producers are credited in the exact same format as those 6 "Soldiers", they are a group, right? If they are, then why not the 6 executive producers as well? Why is "Soldiers" followed by six names a group, but, say, "Sound Editors" followed by six names is not a group? Where do the rules make that distinction, exactly?  |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,733 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
If there was only one song writer on the profile you'd maybe have a point Well, then, think about that for a minute. If you ("maybe") can see the point if it concerns a song written by one song writer, then why wouldn't you be able to see the bigger picture? If not anything else, this should certainly serve as a fairly big hint that we're not supposed to use dividers for this. If the whole approach simply doesn't fly for at least half of the songs, then why would you insist to do it for the remaining ones? Surely it doesn't make sense to treat one song in an entirely different manner than the next one? Anyway, scotthm already covered this back on page #2: Quoting scotthm: Quote:
So however you decide to interpret what you've indicated, what we do know is that a "group" must include more than one crew member. A songwriter is not a group, and so a song written by one credited song writer canot be entered as a group header.
If we're not able to enter all songs as group headers, I think we should exclude songs as group headers. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | It'll get even more fun when we have the one songwriter who has written more than one song. Follwing the divider thing to it's logical conclusion, we then get multiple credits for the same individual. I'm not sure if I care either way, but it's an obvious side effect. Of course for newer films this is no big deal as end credits last 15 minutes anyway, but I was thinking primarily of older films where everything is compressed. | | | | Last edited: by mdnitoil |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
If there was a heading to it like Sound Services provided by XYZ, you bet.
Yes, but simply because the rules tell us to: "If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name." They don't say anything about using dividers to list song titles. So I don't see the connection. Even if the heading said something like "D-Day Landing Sequence" it would still be ok to group them together. The rules only tell us that company names must go into dividers - it's the only place they're allowed - that doesn't mean that company names are the only thing allowed into dividers, the rules state that dividers are for any logical grouping. And as Charlie has already said, just because we end up with only one credit under the divider doesn't mean that was the only name in the end credits. I don't see anyone removing ILM dividers just because there's only a supervisor under it. |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mdnitoil: Quote:
It'll get even more fun when we have the one songwriter who has written more than one song. Follwing the divider thing to it's logical conclusion, we then get multiple credits for the same individual. I'm not sure if I care either way, but it's an obvious side effect. I've already done that a few times. I see it as a benefit as we get to see that they worked on more than one song and which ones. All information we would lose if the dividers were removed. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,733 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
The rules only tell us that company names must go into dividers - it's the only place they're allowed - that doesn't mean that company names are the only thing allowed into dividers, the rules state that dividers are for any logical grouping. Yes, but the rules define those logical groupings as " group of crew" and "crew teams". Never singular. So the rules allow dividers for crew under company names - those can be single credits persons; nothing about groups or teams there - and the rules allow dividers for groupings as a "group of crew" and "crew teams". I still don't see how a single song writer qualifies for the latter. And if a single song writer clearly doesn't qualify, then I can't imagine why we'd be inconsistent and still do it for songs that are written by more than one person. Quote:
I don't see anyone removing ILM dividers just because there's only a supervisor under it. Again, this is a red herring, as this falls under the "If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name" rule - nothing about groups or teams there. These can be single credits. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Fine then, I don't see anyone removing the "Giant Octopus VFX" dividers. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,733 |
| | Posted: | | | | Also, let me repeat my earlier question, since I feel it's a pretty important one. Here goes:
Why is "Soldiers" (in the cast section) followed by six names a group, but, say, "Sound Editors" (in the crew section) followed by six names is not a group? Where do the rules make that distinction, exactly?
I'd really be interested to know that, because I have a feeling that the rule that settles this, will probably help us in settling other crew divider usage questions as well. |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,850 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
the rules state that dividers are for any logical grouping. No, it does not say that. It does list allowed usage and does not say "any". --------------- |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Also, let me repeat my earlier question, since I feel it's a pretty important one. Here goes:
Why is "Soldiers" (in the cast section) followed by six names a group, but, say, "Sound Editors" (in the crew section) followed by six names is not a group? Where do the rules make that distinction, exactly?
I'd really be interested to know that, because I have a feeling that the rule that settles this, will probably help us in settling other crew divider usage questions as well. This is also a red herring. Cast and Crew are treated differently on many different levels (as they should be), even when using Episode dividers, cast and crew respond differently. So lets keep this discussion within the crew. I would never have thought about putting a listing of executive producers under a group. To me that doesn't make any since what so ever. Much less producers, writers screenplay, or any other multiple person listing under drew. These really aren't even the type of listings we are talking about. The type of listings that we ARE talking about, have a distinctive heading of some type. Be it VFX by Buf, or Jim Henson's Creature Shop, or "enter song title here". They all have a heading of some sort. The people under these headings all participated within that heading. A song writer wrote the music and/or lyrics to a specific song, that was in turn credited in that way in the movie. Most movies today, don't even have original songs, and at this point I am only concerned with original songs for the movie. By technicality, if you would like, I can contribute an individual song credit for each original song in the movie. I may have 6 song writer credits of the same name, but since they are credited once per song, I would be completely within my rights to do so. At least the song titles give reference, instead of just some vague "song writer credit" And as far as how it looks   I like the way it looks Charlie |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Here is the section on dividers Quote:
Dividers
Dividers allow the segregation of cast and crew into logical groupings. Wherever possible, these groupings should mirror the film credits.
* Use Episode dividers for TV show episodes, distinct films, or other logical episodic distinction. Also use episode dividers for full cast division, such as "Japanese Voices".
* Use Group dividers to designate cast grouped in the credits such as "Soldiers" or "Additional Cast".
* "Cast", "In order of appearance" or other similar headers at the start of the credits should not be entered.
* Also use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements.
* Groups should be ended with a "Group End" type divider, unless the next entry begins a new group. Do not add a group end divider at the end of the cast, or at the end of a crew section.
This next section is under Cast and Crew Quote:
Crew and Cast
Take Crew Credits from the film credits only; list names exactly as they are in the credits. Exception: If the credit information is entirely capitalized, use standard capitalization rules instead.
Use the "Credited As" field where the person's name differs from the credited name.
List individual credits only, not company name credits. Exception: If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name. This is an exception to the list individually, not to the dividers rule. To put these together, actually creates an improper exception link. Even though they are not specifically allowed, I do not believe they are not specifically disallowed either. IMO, take it for what it is worth. Charlie |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,245 |
| | Posted: | | | | What does the rules say regarding dividers? Quote:
Dividers
Dividers allow the segregation of cast and crew into logical groupings. Wherever possible, these groupings should mirror the film credits. The first part says what the purpose of the dividers are. To segregate cast/crew into logical groupings. The second part says that the dividers should mirror the film credits, whenever possible. So while you may have multiple sound editors and they are a group using a divider to segregate them is redundant. You would basically gave something like. <Sound Editors> John Smith Sound Editor Sally Pulse Sound Editor and so on. The divider in that case adds no value and there is currently no way that I know of to add crew without an associated role. Quote:
Also use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements. As has been pointed out by others many VFX credits listed under company dividers list only one person. I think it's safe to assume that it's impossible in todays films to have only one person responsible for doing all the visual effects on a film. So while it's common sense that many people would do the VFX, the program limits the number we list. If we were to follow the rules then one person doesn't make a Group. Now what does the rules say about company names in dividers? Quote:
Exception: If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name. OK so we enter a company name into the divider. But what exactly does this section refer to If a company name heads a group of crew? Is that referring to the actual film credits> Or is it referring to a Group of crew that we would credit in the program? If it's the latter than it looks like many of the VFX credits would not allow a company divider since one person wouldn't be a group anymore. But if you had two people that could be credited in the program and allowed per the rules and both are listed under the same company divider then the company divider would be allowed. Now either I'm reading too much into this or the wording of the rules needs to be worked on more to avoid confusion. |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,878 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting KinoNiki: Quote:
Quoting Danae Cassandra:
Quote:
I don't believe that's an acceptable answer. We have the tools to do something that at least some of us see a value in. It is no different than the company dividers. We are simply using the tools we have to create context to the credits. We're already entering the song writer credits.
Interesting that you think my opinion is "unacceptable". Last time I checked, you didn't define what is acceptable or not in this forum.  Certainly I do not. It wasn't your opinion that I was trying to say I found unacceptable, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. What I was trying to say was unacceptable was the facetious example I gave in my own reply. The idea of removing or barring something simply because it is of no use to someone. I would find it unacceptable to see someone (like myself) advocating that the VFX stuff not be contributed with dividers because they (I) find no use for them. We're already tracking the credits (under "Visual Effects") so why not allow those credits to mean something. Quote:
I don't want this any more than I wanted the FX people or company dividers, yet I'm forced to live with the outcome despite my personal preferences. If I can do it, so can you. The database can never be everything to everyone. The more it's trying, the more it's failing. The online db should ideally work as a common starting point for the majority of users and not try to provide for every little special interest that some users might have. That's why the local data fields were added. I suggest you use them or request the feature to be added in good order instead of trying to sneak it in through a backdoor because someone accidently left it open. I actually don't think the online is failing. Certainly there are issues - with linking and with a number of profiles lacking information - but I can't fix the linking, and I will only contribute to profiles that I have discs for. But with profiles for newer releases that I download, I often see nothing that needs fixing and profiles that are quite well done. And I am seeing more and more of these as time goes on. So I think, overall, the online is working for most things (linking being the big exception). If we're only providing the most basic of information we will have to ditch most of the crew credits we track, and only track director, and maybe the easy ones like cinematographer and film editor. I don't see us ceasing to track any of the crew that we currently track. I'm not looking to add what I see as the "special interest" crew that I track (choreographer/dance director & character designer), only to add context to crew that we already track. And I have put in the request to be added. I'm not trying to "sneak" anything in through a backdoor. My first - and I'll point out last - use of the dividers in this fashion was before any of these topics came up about this not being a valid use of dividers. I did the songs in this fashion for the profiles I did for The Fabulous Dorseys & Up in the Air (old movie, not the new one with Clooney) because the credits themselves presented with dividers. I see dividers on screen, I figured dividers go in the credits. Other folks than I have seen the value of using the dividers in this fashion and have added them. Perhaps they are trying to "sneak" them in, but I have been quite open about requesting it - I just haven't gotten a lot of reply, either yay or nay. I have started a thread in the rules forum, for those who want to talk about the addition or non-addition there of. Again, sorry if my previous post came off a bit snarky toward you in particular. I didn't mean it that way. I'll try to modulate my vocab better - I dashed that off this morning in a rush before leaving for work. | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield | | | | Last edited: by Danae Cassandra |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 865 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Instead, it only belongs in the custom crew role field - [i]that's[i] where you can track this kind of additional context. If we do this than the we'd just have a list of songwriters, some credited twice or more, without any extra info, is that what we want? Here are some examples: Songs with Divider (also using custom roles)  I think it looks good, some obviously disagree. Than we have T!m's solution Songs without dividers, with custom roles  Which looks good as well, but let's take a look at how it looks without custom roles (so the way we upload it):  Just a long list of songwriters without any extra info, probably confusing people, so why not upload like this:  Getting rid of the extra repeated songwriters, going even further away from the original credit. I think that using these dividers gives us all the info we want the best way possible, Paul |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 2,337 |
| | Posted: | | | | Just out of curiosity. Who are we listing under credit "Song writer"? Just the person(s) who actually wrote the song (melody, chords, etc.) or also person who just did the lyrics too?
If latter, in my opinion it's against the rules because the person who has just made the lyrics isn't a "song writer". |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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