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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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More abuse of group dividers: song writing credits? |
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| Author |
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| Registered: March 20, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,850 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mreeder50: Quote:
But, aren't songwriters considered crew? And thus, like any other crew divider, gives us information as to who did what. My 2 pennies. Here is what the Rules have to say about group dividers, as they pertain to crew: Quote:
If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name.
Also use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements. Using these criteria, I don't see how you could possibly justify using group dividers for songs witten by an individual, and if not for them then why introduce inconsistencies into the database by using them for songs written through collaboration? --------------- | | | | Last edited: by scotthm |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 4,596 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting scotthm: Quote:
Quoting mreeder50:
Quote:
But, aren't songwriters considered crew? And thus, like any other crew divider, gives us information as to who did what. My 2 pennies.
Here is what the Rules have to say about group dividers, as they pertain to crew:
Quote:
If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name.
Also use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements.
Using these criteria, I don't see how you could possibly justify using group dividers for songs witten by an individual, and if not for them then why introduce inconsistencies into the database by using them for songs written through collaboration?
--------------- Exactly! A song is neither a Company Name nor a Crew Team which are appropriate uses for Group Dividers. | | | | My WebGenDVD online Collection |
| | Registered: October 24, 2008 | | Posts: 8 |
| | Posted: | | | | Sorry but the whole "people will vote against and/or correct endlessly" is yet another example of the number of active users who verge on the obsessive over the exact interpretation of rules.
I suspect, although obviously I can't prove it, that the majority of people who use Invelos to catalogue their collections just want to access information quickly and easily. I further suspect that were they to actually venture into these Forums they would find many of the more esoteric debates simply bizarre. |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Bad Father: Quote:
Exactly!
A song is neither a Company Name nor a Crew Team which are appropriate uses for Group Dividers. By everything I have read. The only item that are allowed to go into "Group Dividers" for crew are companies. So a company is the only thing that constitutes a "Crew Team". VFX by XYZ Sound editorial by abc sound etc. If this is the case, then the rule section Quote:
If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name.
Also use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements. The bolded section by me, would be extraneous and not necessary. If it is necessary, give me an example of a crew team that is not company headed. Charlie |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,850 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheHumbleOne: Quote:
I suspect, although obviously I can't prove it, that the majority of people who use Invelos to catalogue their collections just want to access information quickly and easily. Which is why those relatively few users who do contribute to the online database should take care to do so in a logical and consistent manner, and following the Rules is a good way to help achieve that. --------------- |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,850 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
By everything I have read. The only item that are allowed to go into "Group Dividers" for crew are companies. So a company is the only thing that constitutes a "Crew Team".
If this is the case, then the rule section
Quote:
If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name.
Also use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements.
The bolded section by me, would be extraneous and not necessary. If it is necessary, give me an example of a crew team that is not company headed. Neither sentence is extraneous. The second sentence, "Also use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements", comes from the section listing the proper usage of dividers, and tells us that group dividers in the crew are only to be used for teams. The first sentence just notes an exception to the rule that company names are not allowed in the crew credits: "List individual credits only, not company name credits. Exception: If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name." This clarifies that the Group Header name may contain a company name. As to what constitutes a "crew team", and whether or not that must be composed of employees of a sub-contracted company or not, is a can of worms I'm not sure we should open. I think all this anguish over group dividers could be done away with if we were able to contribute custom roles. --------------- |
| | Registered: May 8, 2007 | | Posts: 823 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheHumbleOne: Quote:
I suspect, although obviously I can't prove it, that the majority of people who use Invelos to catalogue their collections just want to access information quickly and easily. I further suspect that were they to actually venture into these Forums they would find many of the more esoteric debates simply bizarre. You said it. | | | | 99.9% of all cat plans consist only of "Step 1." |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting scotthm: Quote:
Here is what the Rules have to say about group dividers, as they pertain to crew:
Quote:
If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name.
Also use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements.
Using these criteria, I don't see how you could possibly justify using group dividers for songs witten by an individual, and if not for them then why introduce inconsistencies into the database by using them for songs written through collaboration?
--------------- Sorry, I missed this. You are combining two sections of the rules that are not joined. The first part is within the cast/crew credits section and reads Quote:
List individual credits only, not company name credits. Exception: If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name. This was included as an exception to the List Individually rule. A company does not constitute a cast/crew credit, therefore the exception had to be made. To link this exception to the other part Quote:
Dividers allow the segregation of cast and crew into logical groupings. Wherever possible, these groupings should mirror the film credits.
Use Episode dividers for TV show episodes, distinct films, or other logical episodic distinction. Also use episode dividers for full cast division, such as "Japanese Voices".
Use Group dividers to designate cast grouped in the credits such as "Soldiers" or "Additional Cast".
"Cast", "In order of appearance" or other similar headers at the start of the credits should not be entered.
Also use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements.
Groups should be ended with a "Group End" type divider, unless the next entry begins a new group. Do not add a group end divider at the end of the cast, or at the end of a crew section.
which is a separate section covering the use of dividers, and only mention "Crew Teams" when referencing crew dividers. So... Obviously, some people believe that a "crew team" is only a company. They base this upon (in my opinion) an improper linking of the exception (list individually) to the divider rule. There isn't anything in the rules that states a "crew team" is only a company. As a matter of fact, there isn't a definition for crew team. We do know by inference that company headers are allowed, but nothing restricts it to only companies. My reading of the rules Charlie |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,850 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
So...
Obviously, some people believe that a "crew team" is only a company. They base this upon (in my opinion) an improper linking of the exception (list individually) to the divider rule.
There isn't anything in the rules that states a "crew team" is only a company. As a matter of fact, there isn't a definition for crew team. We do know by inference that company headers are allowed, but nothing restricts it to only companies.
My reading of the rules That may be the way you read them, but it's asking for trouble, IMO. Whether there's anything in the rules that limits a "crew team" to a company or not, I think we should be very careful in trying to extend its meaning beyond that. Take these credits for example. If "crew teams" aren't limited to companies, someone could make a good case that these film credits depict five "crew teams".  This could lead to either one of the sets of credits below (less the custom roles) being correctly contributed to the online database. In this case, the contribution arguments we have now will pale in comparison to what's to come.  --------------- |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | While, you may view that as a possibility, I do not.
I do not look at it as a team of Art Directors or Screenplay writers.
I do see a team of people writing,producing and or performing a song, and I see it no different than a group of people directing, producing, supervising and or creating the visual effects for a vfx House.
I haven't seen anybody (except as extreme examples) even really suggest Art Directors, or screenwriters be credited in such a way.
Charlie |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | I am not sure why people want to treat Cast and Crew credits the same.
They even react differently within the editors.
Episode Dividers create complete subsets in crew and not in Cast
In cast dividers, you can leave a role blank. In crew dividers, the only way to make it blank, is with other (then it is not contributable).
Since there are inherent differences, let us not try to apply the same parameters to cast and crew.
I don't really know how to word it, but I think most would get the idea. If a group of people are performing a specific functions as a subset of the "Movie" itself then they should be contributed as a crew team (if they are credited that way). If they are directly employed directly by the "Movie", then they should not be credited as a crew group.
To clarify.
Art Directors are part of the Movie.
VFX houses are hired for doing a specific function (and hired as a whole).
Screenwriters and editors are directly part of the movie crew.
Song writers (in most cases) are hired for a specific function (a subset to the music crew) to write music, lyrics, produce, and sometimes perform the song (and need to be credited in the way shown)
Sound editors are typically directly part of the Movie Crew. In some cases they are hired as a "Sound Editorial Company", so sometimes they are a crew grouping
Re-recording mixers are typically part of the movie crew. Sometimes they are hired as a Post Production Sound Company.
I do not know any other way to explain it
Charlie |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | No matter how you try to spin it, a song title is not a crew team; it is a song title, period! | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
No matter how you try to spin it, a song title is not a crew team; it is a song title, period! A Company name is not a crew team, it is just a company name. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
No matter how you try to spin it, a song title is not a crew team; it is a song title, period!
A Company name is not a crew team, it is just a company name. Except that company names are expressly addressed in the Rules...but you already knew that! | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | But it is still not a team. It is the people under the header that make up the team..... |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
But it is still not a team. It is the people under the header that make up the team..... The Rules say that crew dividers can be used for "company names" OR for "crew teams". That means put the "company name" or the "crew team" in the divider. I don't think anyone will argue that the song title is the name of a company...at least I hope not. You seem to agree above that the song title is also NOT the name of a crew team. It is, in fact, just the title of the song. Since it is neither the name of a company, nor the name of a crew team, it cannot be put into a crew divider! | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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