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Quoting skipnet50:

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Here is an excellent example from within a relatively recent film. And this is why we follow the data, Lars, NOT somebodies imaginings or hallucinations as to what is interpreted to be ON SCREEN.

In this film we an actor credited as Isaach De Bankole somebody has produced a Common Name for him of Isaach De Bankolé

We also have an actor credited as Sébastien Foucan and someone has asigned a common name oi
Sebastien Foucan.

Now who is right and who is wriong. If we accept the TWO common names as correct or proper whichever is true. Then the data is handled inconsistently by the filmmakers, which i would say is highly unlikey, especially given this particular film. But there are those who think they know more than the filmmakers and that their nationalistic bias must be followed. BULL, plain and simple, what we follow is the data, nothing more and nothing less, imaginings, hallucinations, nationalistic bias...belong in ONLY one place and that is NOT the Online.

If you can't follow that then there is absolutely no purpose to progressing further.

Skip

You keep imagining random viewpoints you think I have and rant on about them for eternity.

Please try to slow down. Read the following word for word. Once you have read it, try to go back and read it again slowly:

I am NOT saying the rules are wrong. I am NOT saying Kens interpretation is wrong. I am saying the rules themselves are unclear and ambiguous.

If you think I am arguing for the rules being wrong then you still haven't understood it. Go back and read again.

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Lars:

They are not unclear at all, they are so clear and so easy to follow, I can't imagine how much clearer they could possibly be.

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Especially since both Ken and I have tried to offer guidance on this topic repeatedly for three years.

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I will tell you what i have told, Paul. I don't care what LANGUAGE the credits are written in (save for the Program limitations caused by lack of Unicode support) I can transcribe accurately per the On Screen data each and every time without fail. Ken's guidance followed very much in keeping with advice i have always provided, somewhere along the way there is a communication breakdown.

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Where i don't know, but I think I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 65,000 names in my database and i have never had a problem transcribing a single one of them, Lars and you won't either, if you follow what has advice has bveen given, I GUARANTEE it.

Skip

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Quoting skipnet50:

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Paul:

I can't tell you where the Common name entries came from, I know for certain where they did not originate...here. It seems to have occurred on atleast two versions but from whence it came.<shrugs>

I only have one copy of this DVD/film, yes I could download all the other profiles but for now I will just talk about the one I own. There is no 'credited as'/'common name' entry for these two roles in the profile I have. There are two actors where the mapping was changed to 'É' -> 'e' and 'E' -> 'é', for all the others 'É' -> 'é' and 'E' -> 'e' was used. It just so happens that IMDb changed both actors names the same as in this profile (and noted 'credited as'), I think that we both can make a very good guess as to what happened here!

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And ALL credits are very clear as long as you follow them, as I have said if they are entered in latin, then copy them in Latin. When I copy French names from a French film I have no problem following the credits, the only problem comes in translating roles. But just like with any other films the data is either On Screen or it is NOT and if it is I copy it within the limits of the Program. I am sure if I insisted on applying American English Name Rules to French Names, I would have the same problem that a lot of others. But as I have said so many times for so many years, it is not about nationalism or culture, it is simply about the credits, they are the culture, they are the data which we input Online. If ANY user wants to apply different Rules to their own data they are free to do so. This whole thing is so simple that it leaves me thinking that is all wrapped in nationalistic egotism somehow, which if true, is just crazy.

You claim that it doesn't always work and I can tell you that of 6900 titles in my database it works, EVERYTIME without any failure of any kind EVER, including Asian names.

As 1/3 of that 6900 is listed as part of your wishlist, I am not sure how you could check the credits for all of them.

My collection is a bit smaller, ~2150, but a full third are not in English. If I am looking a the credits for a Spanish film where I know that the actors name is 'Penélope Cruz' but for style it is shown as 'PENELOPE CRUZ', I think we need to think about it more. In this case I would use a 'credited as'/'common name' entry. If the program helped us by matching 'Penélope Cruz' to 'Penelope Cruz' in searches it would help a lot.

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I could provide many hypotheses as to why it wouldn't work but I think the central reason is simply that instead of listening, people want to argue, it is that simple. But as long as you recognize that the we are dealing ONLY with ON SCREEN data as it is displayed and stop trying to come up with various rationalizations , be it Asian names, French names or whatever, just follow the data as it is displayed on the screen then you too will NEVER have a problem. I promise.

Skip

I do follow the rules and I do deal with the 'ON SCREEN' data, but the way we do it now leads to a fragmented database. Actors have more than one entry that are not linked together. If most of the films in your collection are 'Hollywood' films, this is much less of a problem. But some of us collect films from all over the world and it is a much bigger problem for us!

pdf

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Quoting pdf256:

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Quoting skipnet50:

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Paul:

I can't tell you where the Common name entries came from, I know for certain where they did not originate...here. It seems to have occurred on atleast two versions but from whence it came.<shrugs>

I only have one copy of this DVD/film, yes I could download all the other profiles but for now I will just talk about the one I own. There is no 'credited as'/'common name' entry for these two roles in the profile I have. There are two actors where the mapping was changed to 'É' -> 'e' and 'E' -> 'é', for all the others 'É' -> 'é' and 'E' -> 'e' was used. It just so happens that IMDb changed both actors names the same as in this profile (and noted 'credited as'), I think that we both can make a very good guess as to what happened here!

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And ALL credits are very clear as long as you follow them, as I have said if they are entered in latin, then copy them in Latin. When I copy French names from a French film I have no problem following the credits, the only problem comes in translating roles. But just like with any other films the data is either On Screen or it is NOT and if it is I copy it within the limits of the Program. I am sure if I insisted on applying American English Name Rules to French Names, I would have the same problem that a lot of others. But as I have said so many times for so many years, it is not about nationalism or culture, it is simply about the credits, they are the culture, they are the data which we input Online. If ANY user wants to apply different Rules to their own data they are free to do so. This whole thing is so simple that it leaves me thinking that is all wrapped in nationalistic egotism somehow, which if true, is just crazy.

You claim that it doesn't always work and I can tell you that of 6900 titles in my database it works, EVERYTIME without any failure of any kind EVER, including Asian names.

As 1/3 of that 6900 is listed as part of your wishlist, I am not sure how you could check the credits for all of them.

My collection is a bit smaller, ~2150, but a full third are not in English. If I am looking a the credits for a Spanish film where I know that the actors name is 'Penélope Cruz' but for style it is shown as 'PENELOPE CRUZ', I think we need to think about it more. In this case I would use a 'credited as'/'common name' entry. If the program helped us by matching 'Penélope Cruz' to 'Penelope Cruz' in searches it would help a lot.

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I could provide many hypotheses as to why it wouldn't work but I think the central reason is simply that instead of listening, people want to argue, it is that simple. But as long as you recognize that the we are dealing ONLY with ON SCREEN data as it is displayed and stop trying to come up with various rationalizations , be it Asian names, French names or whatever, just follow the data as it is displayed on the screen then you too will NEVER have a problem. I promise.

Skip

I do follow the rules and I do deal with the 'ON SCREEN' data, but the way we do it now leads to a fragmented database. Actors have more than one entry that are not linked together. If most of the films in your collection are 'Hollywood' films, this is much less of a problem. But some of us collect films from all over the world and it is a much bigger problem for us!

pdf

Elementary, my dear Paul. Ever hear of a lttle marvel called VIDEOTAPE. Evidently NOT. Do you think I only started my film collection with the advent of DVD...hardly I have been collecting movies for 25 years, I should actually go even further but I don't have many actual films anymore.  

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What makes YOU think you know so much that you can determine that its Penélope Cruz, if its credied as Penelope Cruz.

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The credit as I have said many times is part of the actor's credit. She approved it and you call it stylistic, you are indede a mystic when you can determine that.

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We don't do "Correct" names, I don't care how mystical you think you are, we do COMMONLY CREDITED NAMES.

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It depends in this case how Ms. Cruz views herself which neither you or I have much ability to determine. What do we have the ability to determine, the credits and how they are listed. We CAN determine that in ONE film she is credited as Penélope Cruz, we can determine that in another film she is credited as Penelope Cruz, and both are CORRECT within the confines of EACH film, neither of which has anything to do with what might be "CORRECT", let alone what is correct TODAY or in the film she is going to appear in next year, that is a different dataset, which for all we know might be Penny Cruz.

WE can determine photographically (usually) that Penny=Penelope=Penélope, we can determine based on ACTUAL data what the Most Commonly Credited form is. To pretend that you can determine that her name IS Penélope is absolutely absurd. You don't have access to all the information which would be required to be able to state that as a certainty. So once again, we deal with FACTUAL data that appears ON SCREEN, not what some mystical user peering into a crystal thinks is so.

The crystal ball, if you want to deal with culture or CORRECT names belongs LOCALLY.

Skip

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This is the full quote (emphasis changed to match the part you left out of the quote):
Take Crew Credits from the film credits only; list names exactly as they are in the credits. Exception: If the credit information is entirely capitalized, use standard capitalization rules instead. 

The exeption does not specify what it means with "standard" capitalization rules. That is where the rules are not clear. I am not claiming the part you are quoting isn't clear, so stop wasting energy explaining how clear it is.