to you, Merrik.

Quoting TheMadMartian:

Quote:
Quoting Merrik:

Quote:
Let people have their say

Um, doesn't that go both ways?  Can't we have our say as well or is it just the people who want to rant and complain that are allowed to have their say? 

For the record, I don't think I have seen anybody say that things couldn't be better.  What has been said, however, is that we don't let it bother us because we have feel that we have gotten our $20 worth.  Are we not allowed to express that opinion or is your opinion the only one that is valid?  I am not asking you to agree and I am not offended, I am just pointing out the fact that your little rant does exactly what you are ranting about...attempting to shut down the opposing opinion. 

That's the ENTIRETY of what you picked up from my over the top rant?   

Yeah... it's a wonder nothing ever improves around these forums....

Let's play a little game. Let's say that I didn't include that completely and totally off hand comment (which you're giving so much more importance to than it deserves as that's actually the ONLY time in my entire post that I even kind of skew into what you're talking about... the rest of it is simply me asking a question and stating what I've observed here over the past couple of years). What would you focus on then? What would you take out of my little rant then? Take that line out. It was a mistake. I didn't mean to include it. Where do we go from now?

Quoting Merrik:

Quote:
What would you take out of my little rant then?

What I personally take out of it is that you're quite disdainful of those members who are not (in your opinion) sufficiently critical of Invelos' handling of these forums.

For you to suggest that others don't understand the problems because they don't endorse your viewpoint is incorrect.  I know forum moderation is lax and that rules are subject to "creative" interpretation, but I'm not entirely certain that more important things aren't being tended to and so am not feeling particularly critical.  Even when Ken does clarify a rule in the forums the arguing doesn't stop because some will ignore it until it's enshrined in the Rules.  I, for one, do not look forward to weekly amendments to the Rules.

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Quoting scotthm:

Quote:
What I personally take out of it

Good thing I wasn't asking you then, isn't it?  (Not to mention the fact that you're like off the planet incorrect, but I'm assuming you knew that already).

Quoting scotthm:

Quote:
Even when Ken does clarify a rule in the forums the arguing doesn't stop because some will ignore it until it's enshrined in the Rules.  I, for one, do not look forward to weekly amendments to the Rules.

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It wouldn't be weekly updates. Most of the threads are arguments about the same subjects.

Grendell> Brilliant post.

Well said Charlie... I completely agree... it is my feeling on the matter as well.

This is an interesting discussion.

I get a great deal of pleasure out of auditing my DVDs and contributing the results.  From my prospective, I could happy just keep the information I audit locally (and it would be worth the price if that’s all the database did).  However, being able to download thousands of (at least partly) completed profiles is brilliant too, as it’s reduced the amount I need to do myself and has given me (fairly accurate) information to look at and explore that on my own would have taken years to accumulate.  I can pretty well use any set of rules locally that I want to organise all this data too; in my local database, I am, The Law (Ken Cole)!

So why do I contribute anything? (Which is a good question to ask yourself).  Well, it’s partly a thank you to all those whose work I’ve already benefitted from (as they might now benefit from mine).  However, the effort of ‘sending it in’ really is quite minimal and it makes me feel good when a contribution gets positive votes and in particular when someone puts a nice comment by their vote.  Quite simply, it feels nice when people are nice to you, especially when it’s not their ‘job’ to do so.  Basic, human stuff really.

I work (by which I mean I get paid) for a large charity in the UK that exists to support and encourage volunteering.  What anyone that’s not paid but is contributing to the online database in any way is doing, is volunteering.  He/she is using his/her own time and resources to provide something that’s of benefit to the wider community.  Sometimes my own organisation charges these people for what we do, as we need to cover the costs of doing so, just as Invelos has done for the database.  Now, I have no idea why Invelos seems unable to deliver on this thread’s specific issue (and I would imagine it has a perfectly rational explanation for the situation), but what I am aware of is that if you don’t treat volunteers well, they stop volunteering.  This often means going further than you would for an employee, who is effectively ‘bribed’ by a wage to be frustrated, bored or otherwise dissatisfied with the situation he/she is in.  Volunteers have to feel good about what they’re doing, or most will stop doing it.  Feeling good closely equates to feeling that what they’re doing is valued, worthwhile and they’re thanked for it.  Most volunteers like to feel confident that they’re doing the right thing to the best of their ability too.  I suspect that the frustration here relates to this last point; people are confused about the right way to do some things and this is frustrating and ‘spoils’ the enjoyment of volunteering by reducing the feel good factor from doing it.  The lack of clear decisions following the many discussions in the forums makes it feel like there’s a lack of thanks for taking the time (volunteering) to think through and discuss the areas of confusion, which adds to the frustration.

The private sector by and large hasn’t the slightest idea how to work with people as volunteers, as it takes a very specific set of (both soft and hard) skills and procedures to do so properly.  Most private companies don’t understand this or care to invest in it.  However, given the good will that most people who volunteer bring with them, it is very easy for them to be taken advantage of (often inadvertently) by those that don’t understand the reasons people do it and how to ensure their good will is maintained.  This can only go on for so long. (I see examples of organisations that rely on volunteers, managing to p*** them off all the time, or failing to recruit new ones; it’s clear from these examples that these organisations tend to vanish in the end, as someone will always come along to fill the void.)  (And I’ve not even touched here on the more general area of customer service that successful, private companies do tend to understand better than volunteering.)  There are a number of other, similar databases and communities out there that do a similar job that we’re all free to use instead.  However, people here are offering, as volunteers, to stay and try to help make this one even better.  What great brand loyalty.  What private company wouldn’t love their custumers to not only buy their products, but then actively help to improve them without expecting any sort of payment?  Consultants are paid a great deal of money to do the latter.  A much smaller investment can ‘buy’ a small army of volunteers who probably know a lot more about the product, actually care for it and know very specifically what they’d like it to do.  (In small companies, the consultant’s role is often the owners.)  Databases often have specific problems too, in that their developers generally aren’t the main users, so often don’t fully understand the users’ needs, as they lack the hand-on time or range of experiences to accumulate these.  Databases that are evolving need this input, or they generally end up suffering from mission drift.

Okay, ramble over...  Paul

I have mixed feelings over this:

As far as the software is concerned, this is the best value for money I've ever had: one purchase with tons of updates, downloadable profiles and lifelong support. I couldn't wish for more. This is the very best DVD cataloging software and the best value for money. No doubt about it.

The downside is that the online is what it is thanks to contributors. Those contributors offer a lot to the community and in a way, also to Invelos (as the online is one of the major selling points). In that regard I think it's a pity that contributors are often left hanging by Invelos: either by not providing an answer or not implementing sorely needed adaptations to the online. Just as an example: how long have we been waiting to finally get a ruling (preferably a decent one) on Asian naming conventions? Too often, the contributors are left to solve problems amongst themselves there where someone with authority should step in.

Just my 2 cents


PS: nice post by Paul, very well written