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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Using dividers for song titles in crew contributions |
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| Author |
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  | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,733 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mdnitoil: Quote:
I'm seeing profile submissions with blank dividers, presumably put there to generate some kind of spacing. And we've had that discussion several times already as well. Let me paraphrase: no!!! Please vote against that whenever you see it. Nothing (empty space) is not a "logical grouping" by anyone's standards, and certainly not by the rules. Quote:
It's pretty obvious the whole divider thing is fubar The endless stream of recurring threads on all imaginable use and abuse of group dividers does show that it's a mess, yeah. But beyond repair? Shrugging it off with a "oh well, what's the difference" certainly isn't going to make it any better, but an extensive set of rules explicitly detailing how to (and how not to) deal with dividers would. The current blink-and-you'll-miss-it appearance in the rules of the entire group divider concept clearly isn't enough to stop people from just doing whatever they like, turning the database into an inconsistent mess... |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
That's why I'm hoping this particular issue's settled now, so that the next time anyone asks about it, someone can just point to this thread, without having to go through the entire debate from scratch again... I don't see this as a settled item. There are many items that we cannot settle without intervention from Ken. You may not like it. I personally see value in the name of the song. Whether one writer or 12 doesn't matter. It is a logical grouping, and I am not the only one that thinks this is a proper use. Charlie |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,878 |
| | Posted: | | | | I'm with Corne and Charlie. Look at it this way - I'm not a VFX person, so as far as value goes I gain nothing from the company group divider. However, those who are VFX people do. Everyone was complaining about those long lists of visual effects people with no context - so that's why we have the company names in group dividers.
Now, looking at a profile with song dividers (credits for the movie The Fabulous Dorseys) - what tells you more?
Don George : Song Writer
Allie Wrubel : Song Writer
Leo Shuken : Song Writer
Ned Washington : Song Writer
George Bassman : Song Writer
OR
["To Me"]
Don George : Song Writer
Allie Wrubel : Song Writer
["Dorsey Concerto"]
Leo Shuken : Song Writer
["I'm Getting Sentimental Over You"]
Ned Washington : Song Writer
George Bassman : Song Writer
The group dividers add context to the credits. Otherwise it's just a list of song writers.
AFAIC, this is no different than whether or not to list the full credit for VFX. Both add context. I could care less about whether or not to list the divider as [Giant Monster by Company X] vs. [Company X], but if you want [Giant Monster by Company X] what is your objection to entering the song titles?
I proposed this addition to the rules over in the rules committee forum, but I didn't get much traction in either direction. At the time, Martian, you said you could see merit in the idea.
If, as those of you contend, this is against the rules as they are written, would you object to the addition - and if so, why? | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield | | | | Last edited: by Danae Cassandra |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 3,197 |
| | Posted: | | | | The problem is that there will never be an end to what people want in the database. Today this, tomorrow that, where will it end? It's already too much and still many profiles lack even the most basic data. Those who want this already have the option to customize their data, leave it at that. | | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,850 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting KinoNiki: Quote:
The problem is that there will never be an end to what people want in the database. So true. The online should contain only things that virtually all users will find useful. The more esoteric data should be confined to the local databases, IMO. --------------- |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,878 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting KinoNiki: Quote:
The problem is that there will never be an end to what people want in the database. Today this, tomorrow that, where will it end? It's already too much and still many profiles lack even the most basic data. Those who want this already have the option to customize their data, leave it at that. Fine. May we not include all these VFX/SFX and Sound company dividers then? I don't care about them. After all, those who want them have the option to customize their data. I don't believe that's an acceptable answer. We have the tools to do something that at least some of us see a value in. It is no different than the company dividers. We are simply using the tools we have to create context to the credits. We're already entering the song writer credits. Yes, some profiles lack the most basic data. I am trying to rectify that with the profiles of the discs in my collection. But if the answer is simply "customize their data" then I will not be able to contribute the crew sections of those profiles. I have a stack of DVDs by my side that are waiting for my update - all lack that most basic data, as you put it. But if I go forward with updating them, entering full cast & crew I will either have to not contribute the crew data if there are songs which the song writers are credited for, or I will have to alter the credits to my preference after submitting. This is an easy addition, that adds context and value to the credits, so I don't understand what the problem is. | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting KinoNiki: Quote:
The problem is that there will never be an end to what people want in the database. Today this, tomorrow that, where will it end? It's already too much and still many profiles lack even the most basic data. Those who want this already have the option to customize their data, leave it at that. Why should there be a limit. Who among us, is the authority to determine what should and shouldn't be in the DB. I personally could care less about the extended sound credits (outside of the basic Sound Designer), but actually would like to see an extension of the art section. CG Supervisors, 2D and 3D supervisors, Modelers etc. All these people have just as much importance as Production Sound Mixer. On the other hand, maybe you would like more production staff, and could care less about the internal working of the VFX companies. That would be your choice. I really think there needs to be an expansion of the DB to include more items Casting people, stunt coordinators, fight choreographers, Hair Stylists etc. I have contributed groups for song titles. They do not require a programming change, and add context and value to the DB. Without context the song writers have vague meanings... Charlie |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Danae Cassandra: Quote:
The group dividers add context to the credits. Otherwise it's just a list of song writers.
AFAIC, this is no different than whether or not to list the full credit for VFX. Both add context. I could care less about whether or not to list the divider as [Giant Monster by Company X] vs. [Company X], but if you want [Giant Monster by Company X] what is your objection to entering the song titles? Company names are specifically allowed by the rules. How they are formatted, however, is not. That, at least to me, is quite different than whether or not they are allowed. Quote:
I proposed this addition to the rules over in the rules committee forum, but I didn't get much traction in either direction. At the time, Martian, you said you could see merit in the idea.
If, as those of you contend, this is against the rules as they are written, would you object to the addition - and if so, why? As you noted, I do see merit in the idea and would not object to having it added to the rules...I would just prefer that people waited until it is. That's what we VFX people did...well, it's what I did anyway.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,878 |
| | Posted: | | | | Thank you, Martian! I think I understand your point now.  But, to be clear - you would not object to the addition of allowing group dividers to be used for song writer credits. But because they are not specifically addressed in the rules, you believe the use of them in this fashion is against the rules and would rather them not be used in this way at this time. | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | It's all the same to me and the argument that some people won't be able to update portions of the online because of personal choices is a non-starter in my opinion. If something is a worthy idea, it's worthy on it's own merits, not in how it makes a subset of users' lives easier. I've been living with the "I can't contribute this stuff" burden for years now. |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,878 |
| | Posted: | | | | That's fair enough, as far as the non-contributing part goes. At the moment what I do with the non-contributable parts I want is to simply use the 'other' slots for crew roles. I only brought it up as one more point for the argument.
Personally, I think the idea is a good one on its own.
1. It uses a tool we already have and requires no program upgrade, only a rules tweak.
2. It adds context and value to the song writer credits.
3. Often credits will present in this fashion, with the song title as a divider.
4. If there came a time when we wanted to enter non-original songs, this would again give us a context for them.
5. If there comes a time when we enter custom credits, this still has value & purpose, since often you will see lyrics and music credited to different people for a single song.
6. If someone doesn't want to enter the dividers, they don't have to. They would also be easy to remove. | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | Yeah, I have no problem with it. I won't be doing it myself, but more power to those who want to. Not that I'm being a jerk about songs, I very rarely will use a divider, period. I don't have any use for them and they're just one more thing I need to "fix" when I download a profile from the online. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Danae Cassandra: Quote:
Thank you, Martian! I think I understand your point now.
But, to be clear - you would not object to the addition of allowing group dividers to be used for song writer credits. But because they are not specifically addressed in the rules, you believe the use of them in this fashion is against the rules and would rather them not be used in this way at this time. Correct. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 865 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
I sincerely hope we can put this one to bed now, and that it's clear to everyone that we don't use group dividers for song writers. Meaning: so we won't need to have this exact same debate over again next month or so? That would be great. From this discussion it clearly isn't clear to everyone dividers shouldn't be used. To clarify. I did the submission using the dividers, as i did several times before,clearly stating in my notes the use of these dividers. All the submission i did were accepted, so is it really against the rules? I undertsnad a mistake can be made by the screeners but all of them were accepted. For example: - McLintock (disc-ID 7D3FB0097E96A50E) - The High and the Mighty (Disc-ID 0DD79F2379F4F2E8) - El Dorado (Disc-ID 35D7BDD13A75C768) - Hatari (Disc-ID BD327BEB020008AA) - Avatar (87126260445598) - I Think i Love My Wife (8712626036708) - Cradle to the Grave (7321900234115) - Semi-Pro (5017239195945) - The Transformers: The Movie: 20th Anniversary Special Edition (886970-179294) - Cloudy With A Chance Of Meatballs (5-050629-764437) All of these titles were voted on and accepted, in my note i clearly stated Quote:
Recently saw several updates using Group Dividers for songs, decied to give it a try as well. Let me know if you disagree So it's not a black and white as you make it out to be. I can also say that thus far i received 25 Yes and 4 No votes. I also did the same update on the Japanese box and the Dutch Blu-Ray i also own with 4 and 1 Yes vote and no No votes Paul |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting Danae Cassandra:
Quote:
Thank you, Martian! I think I understand your point now.
But, to be clear - you would not object to the addition of allowing group dividers to be used for song writer credits. But because they are not specifically addressed in the rules, you believe the use of them in this fashion is against the rules and would rather them not be used in this way at this time.
Correct. This would be my view on the matter as well | | | | Pete |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,850 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting paulb_99: Quote:
From this discussion it clearly isn't clear to everyone dividers shouldn't be used. The Rules on the use of Group Dividers for crew: Quote:
use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements. The "other listing requirements": Quote:
Exception: If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name. I don't see songs listed anywhere in the "other requirements" section. Quote:
To clarify. I did the submission using the dividers, as i did several times before,clearly stating in my notes the use of these dividers. All the submission i did were accepted, so is it really against the rules? I undertsnad a mistake can be made by the screeners but all of them were accepted. So when you can drive home at 50mph in a 35mph zone without getting a ticket I guess it means the speed limit really is 50mph? --------------- |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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