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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
we don't show for capitalization per Ken.
Excuse me, but... What?! I left out one part in that above... "difference in". We don't Show difference in capitalization... as in with Credited as... Ken even made a filter so it was impossible to do so. So if they meant the difference of... Nicole de Boer over Nicole De Boer that is something that would not come into consideration for a common name. | | | | Pete | | | | Last edited: by Addicted2DVD |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
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 | johnd | | Evening, poetry lovers. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 298 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
See what I put in bold. Ken himself said we go with the CLT over even signatures... see the part of Ken's statement I put in bold. Well, Ken is just plain wrong there. The ultimate determiner is the person and how they present their name, as anyone who works in the field of personal data will tell you. |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | The thing is... Ken can't be wrong about what he wants for his online database. And he has said what he wants... what he is after is the most commonly used form of the name from the credits. So we have to do it as he wants it. At least until a time comes that he changes his mind on the subject. | | | | Pete |
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  | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 8,738 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
So if they meant the difference of...
Nicole de Boer
over
Nicole De Boer
that is something that would not come into consideration for a common name. While it's true that "Nicole de Boer [Nicole De Boer]" (or vice-versa) cannot be listed in the online database, it's still important to know whether the common name is with "de" or "De". |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | I don't see how it matters which is since it can't be accounted for with credited as. Since it can't be accounted for it really seems much ado about nothing to me. Especially since it don't matter when downloaded it will still use your local variant. | | | | Pete |
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| T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,738 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
I don't see how it matters which is since it can't be accounted for with credited as. Since it can't be accounted for it really seems much ado about nothing to me. Especially since it don't matter when downloaded it will still use your local variant. So you choose "de" and and I choose "The", or the other way around, and then we'll ping-pong for years to come - is that it? If you've entered it as "de", and the next cast change I'm making automatically includes a change to "De", will you vote yes? From experience (general, not with you specifically) I can report things aren't always that smooth. To illustrate this a bit better, let's use an exaggerated-but-still-exactly-the-same example: if I consider the correct capitalization of Robert De Niro to be rObErT dE nIrO and enter him as such, will you still vote yes, saying "I don't see how it matters"? |
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| Registered: May 8, 2007 | | Posts: 663 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
So if they meant the difference of...
Nicole de Boer
over
Nicole De Boer
that is something that would not come into consideration for a common name.
While it's true that "Nicole de Boer [Nicole De Boer]" (or vice-versa) cannot be listed in the online database, it's still important to know whether the common name is with "de" or "De". I'll have to agree with T!M on this one, since my last name also starts with the lowercase "de" followed by a capital letter. When I was in high school oh so many years ago I decided to change the "d" to "D" and my family wasn't too happy, so I changed it back. I feel that by changing the letters to uppercase is an insult to that person's heritage, which is why you'll notice on her credits that it is a uppercase "DE," but it matches the lower case font. Ken has got to realize that not everyone spells their last names with uppercase letters, just because he does. | | | We're on a mission from God.
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
I don't see how it matters which is since it can't be accounted for with credited as. Since it can't be accounted for it really seems much ado about nothing to me. Especially since it don't matter when downloaded it will still use your local variant.
So you choose "de" and and I choose "The", or the other way around, and then we'll ping-pong for years to come - is that it? If you've entered it as "de", and the next cast change I'm making automatically includes a change to "De", will you vote yes? From experience (general, not with you specifically) I can report things aren't always that smooth. To illustrate this a bit better, let's use an exaggerated-but-still-exactly-the-same example: if I consider the correct capitalization of Robert De Niro to be rObErT dE nIrO and enter him as such, will you still vote yes, saying "I don't see how it matters"? Since I know it don't matter per the program I personally have always ignored any capitalization differences when I vote. So yes even in that exaggerated example I would still vote yes. IU may shake my head at it in confusion... but knowing it will change nothing in my local... I wouldn't be bothered with it. The thing is... The program don't see it as different... the rules don't say to do anything different for such capitalization (and why should it since the program don't see the difference)... so how in the world do you think you can get everyone on the same page for such things. At least until Ken does something about the way it shows in the contribution (somehow not showing it as a change or make a statement on it or something) I really don't see getting everyone on the same page. It just not going to happen. | | | | Pete |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
So if they meant the difference of...
Nicole de Boer
over
Nicole De Boer
that is something that would not come into consideration for a common name.
While it's true that "Nicole de Boer [Nicole De Boer]" (or vice-versa) cannot be listed in the online database, it's still important to know whether the common name is with "de" or "De". I just checked... and the CLT don't show a difference in the capitalization... same UPCs come up for Nicole deBoer and Nicole DeBoer And you expect people to worry about what is the most common between them are when even the CLT don't tell us? Plus you can't submit such a difference? I Definitely don't see that happening. | | | | Pete | | | | Last edited: by Addicted2DVD |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Mighty Mike: Quote:
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
So if they meant the difference of...
Nicole de Boer
over
Nicole De Boer
that is something that would not come into consideration for a common name.
While it's true that "Nicole de Boer [Nicole De Boer]" (or vice-versa) cannot be listed in the online database, it's still important to know whether the common name is with "de" or "De".
I'll have to agree with T!M on this one, since my last name also starts with the lowercase "de" followed by a capital letter. When I was in high school oh so many years ago I decided to change the "d" to "D" and my family wasn't too happy, so I changed it back. I feel that by changing the letters to uppercase is an insult to that person's heritage, which is why you'll notice on her credits that it is a uppercase "DE," but it matches the lower case font. Ken has got to realize that not everyone spells their last names with uppercase letters, just because he does. I don't believe he thinks that at all... but as he has said on more then one occasion... he is not after "real" names... but the most commonly credited form from the credits. So the "real" name really isn't a factor. Between that and the fact that the program don't see a difference in capitalization something like this just don't matter to this program. But the best thing is... if you can find (or know) the correct capitalization... you can set that in your profiler... and you don't have anything to worry about since even if you download something with a different capitalization the program stays set at the way it is capitalized in your local database. So at least to me... this seems like much ado about nothing... since I can have it capitalized as it should be locally (if I know it).. and not have to worry about it being changed... then all is fine in my eyes. | | | | Pete |
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| T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,738 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
The thing is... The program don't see it as different... Yes, it does. Quoting Ken Cole: Quote:
The DBISAM database engine does distinguish cases. As explained time and time again, the program is set up to protect your local database against capitalization changes, so once you HAVE a "Robert De Niro" entry, it'll stay as such, no matter whether you accept an update which has it as "Robert de Niro" or even "rObErT dE nIrO". It's great that the program is set up to protect your local value, but when you contribute, you'll find that the program does distinguish between the two, and ping-ponging ensues. Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
At least until Ken does something about the way it shows in the contribution (somehow not showing it as a change or make a statement on it or something) I really don't see getting everyone on the same page. I don't see that either, and I'd very much like to see any improvement in this area. In the meantime, I'll try to work with what we've got to the best of my ability. As such, I will be entering "Robert De Niro" instead of "Robert de Niro" or even "rObErT dE nIrO", and if I had this actress in my database, I'd aim to capitalize her name correctly, too. As such, when we're looking for a common name, I'm very interested to know what the person's REALLY credited as, including capitalization, so that I can make an informed choice as to how to format the name. |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | See now you are saying it correctly... that you are very interested. And that is wonderful. And I can say that if I know beyond a shadow of a doubt what the correct capitalization is that is what I would use.
But for the point of these threads and contributions... it really don't matter and you can't expect other people to go to any extra lengths if they don't so wish. If we (general) don't have to per rules or per a statement by Ken then that is just you (general) going that little extra for yourself. But you can't demand or even expect others to do so as well. | | | | Pete |
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| T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,738 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
it really don't matter Again, you're making a huge leap from "the program is set up to protect your local value" and "it don't matter". Maybe it "don't matter" in your case, because you've stated that you won't vote against capitalization changes, no matter how wrong you might know such a change to be. I can assure you that not everyone feels that way, and getting no-votes and getting contributions declined certainly don't signal "it don't matter" to me. Note that this is similar to how the program is set up to protect your local value as far as parsing is concerned. Same thing: your local value is protected, so it's easy to say "it really don't matter". Until you try to contribute...  |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | You are not telling me anything I don't know Tim... and I have said in the past I have seen such no votes myself. To me that is beside the point. It don't mean people need to do extra work in threads such as this since it can't be contributed as a shown difference (as in using the credited as).
In a perfect world I agree with what you are saying... but in the real world... I see it just as idealistic and something... and here is the main point... something that we can't enforce on people. If Ken wants to make a change... wonderful. If Ken wants to make a statement... not wonderful... but we could work with that. Beyond that... we have no other choice but to live with it. | | | | Pete |
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| T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,738 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
If we (general) don't have to per rules or per a statement by Ken Ah, but we do. The rules state to enter names "exactly as they are in the credits", and there's nothing indicating that that doesn't apply to capitalization. Again, the program is set up to protect your local value, and I'm glad that it does that, but for contribution purposes, the rule that demands the names to be entered "exactly as they are in the credits" is still firmly in place. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
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