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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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More abuse of group dividers: song writing credits? |
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| Author |
Message |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting tweeter: Quote:
I don't see the Rules allowing this and would vote against it without hesitation. This. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
Quoting tweeter:
Quote:
I don't see the Rules allowing this and would vote against it without hesitation.
Could you point out where in the rules it isn't allowed? In the crew section of the rules, we have this line: List individual credits only, not company name credits. Exception: If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name.That tells me what type of 'group' or 'crew team' we are looking for...those that are under a company header. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: October 6, 2008 | | Posts: 1,932 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting Corne:
Quote:
Quoting tweeter:
Quote:
I don't see the Rules allowing this and would vote against it without hesitation.
Could you point out where in the rules it isn't allowed?
In the crew section of the rules, we have this line:
List individual credits only, not company name credits. Exception: If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name.
That tells me what type of 'group' or 'crew team' we are looking for...those that are under a company header. That exception merely allows the entry of a company name in a group header, when normally company credits are not allowed. <EDIT> I'm undecided about the main issue, but this rule exception cannot be used to disallow a credit group defined as those who wrote a song. | | | | Last edited: by CalebAndCo |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CalebAndCo: Quote:
<EDIT> I'm undecided about the main issue, but this rule exception cannot be used to disallow a credit group defined as those who wrote a song. In my opinion, it can as it gives the rules context. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting CalebAndCo:
Quote:
<EDIT> I'm undecided about the main issue, but this rule exception cannot be used to disallow a credit group defined as those who wrote a song.
In my opinion, it can as it gives the rules context. You're using common sense and context which is clearly not allowed by the DVDP Contribution Rules.  | | | | My Home Theater |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | I'm with Corne with this, and is how I've been doing it locally, I don't think I've submitted any yet though. The rules state that: Quote:
Dividers allow the segregation of cast and crew into logical groupings. Wherever possible, these groupings should mirror the film credits. As far as I'm concerned a group of songwriters working together to write a song is a "logical grouping" and therefore perfectly allowed. If I remember rightly these dividers were introduced to the crew section partly to allow the new Visual Effects crew to be grouped together so we didn't end up with a useless list of names with no context. Well this is exactly the same, we are giving the list of names context. Edit: and referring back to T!m's original post, I've also done it in the OMB section where I've had a group of people credited for one thing. Edit 2: as an example, my profile for Absolute Beginners contains 14 original songs with 25 songwriters (some names repeated). Without dividers that list would just be a mess just like the visual effects crew lists used to be. | | | | Last edited: by northbloke |
|   | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 |  Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
I'm with Corne with this, and is how I've been doing it locally, I don't think I've submitted any yet though.
The rules state that:
Quote:
Dividers allow the segregation of cast and crew into logical groupings. Wherever possible, these groupings should mirror the film credits.
As far as I'm concerned a group of songwriters working together to write a song is a "logical grouping" and therefore perfectly allowed.
If I remember rightly these dividers were introduced to the crew section partly to allow the new Visual Effects crew to be grouped together so we didn't end up with a useless list of names with no context.
Well this is exactly the same, we are giving the list of names context.
Edit: and referring back to T!m's original post, I've also done it in the OMB section where I've had a group of people credited for one thing.
Edit 2: as an example, my profile for Absolute Beginners contains 14 original songs with 25 songwriters (some names repeated). Without dividers that list would just be a mess just like the visual effects crew lists used to be. Needless to say that I completely agree with this  By-the-way I think the wording of the question of this poll is highly subjective and directive by using the word "abuse". | | | | Cor | | | | Last edited: by Corne |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Currently, the poll runs 23 to 9 against using dividers for song titles. Unfortunately, that won't change anything. People are going to do what they want, because they believe they are correct. It is unfortunate that we have another rule open to interpretation.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,878 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Industrial Light & Magic
Some Person - Visual Effects Supervisor
Some Person - Visual Effects Designer
Some Person - Digital Effects Supervisor
Now that's a real group, that's a real "crew team". Listing a song title in a divider is something else entirely. So therefore, when you see credits like this: Original Song"To Me" Lyrics by Don George Music by Allie Wrurel "Dorsey Concerto" by Leo Shuken "I'm Getting Sentimental Over You" Lyrics by Ned Washington Music by George Bassman You don't see at least two crew teams? | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield | | | | Last edited: by Danae Cassandra |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | I do not, no. If we did, why not...
Edited by John Smith and James Johnson?
Produced by James Simmons, Sam Davis & Bill Sanders?
Screenplay by George Jones and Sara Johns & Roger Murdock?
Are those 'crew teams'? Do we enter them with group dividers? | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
I do not, no. If we did, why not...
Edited by John Smith and James Johnson?
Produced by James Simmons, Sam Davis & Bill Sanders?
Screenplay by George Jones and Sara Johns & Roger Murdock?
Are those 'crew teams'? Do we enter them with group dividers? Edited by, produced by, screenplay by are all roles. Just like Lyrics By, Written By etc. Song Titles aren't part of the roles. | | | | Cor |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,733 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
Song Titles aren't part of the roles. Yes they are. Again: if "<song name> written by" qualifies for a divider, then "<any kind of original material name> written by" qualifies for a divider, too. Worse, going down that road even opens up "make-up for <actor name>" for use of a divider for the actor name. Effectively, they're exactly the same: they all give further detail about the job done. So really: all of these examples are just part of the role name, for which we have an excellent field to store it in - the custom role name field. Think about it: you've just conceded that "Lyrics by" is a role. If you get that, then why is "Lyrics for <song name> by" suddenly any different? Again: how is this different from the difference between "Make-up Artist" and "Make-up Artist for Mr. De Niro"? The latter adds some further detail to the credit, sure, which is why I store it in my local database (in the custom role name field, where it belongs). But I don't see how we're allowed to turn this bit of further detail into a "group divider". | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Actual credit
"SO LONG & THANKS FOR ALL THE FISH"
Written by Joby Talbot, Garth Jennings and Christopher Austin
Produced by Joby Talbot
Vocals performes by Hilary Summers, Kemi Ominiyi & the R'SVP Voices
"SO LONG & THANKS FOR ALL THE FISH" (End of Title Version)
Written by Joby Talbot, Garth Jennings and Christopher Austin
Produced by Joby Talbot
Tell me how many times you have seen Makeup crdited this way. If you do, then I will support the grouping. These are groups. We do not credit in the online for all the players, but it is still a group. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,733 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
it is still a group. Six sound editors are a group, too - yet we don't use a divider for that. I'm not saying that three people can't form a "group", I'm just saying that the song title is part of their role name, and does not qualify for a divider. Additional question: by your definition, a song written by a single song writer, that lone guy is a "group", too? | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | So if a song writer is credited for 2 separate songs, how do you credit
Song A
Written by 1 and 2
Song B
Written by 1 and 3
is it
1 as song writer
2 as song writer
1 as song writer
3 as song writer
with no context, it seems a little silly
or do we only credit like this
1 as song writer
2 as song writer
3 as song writer
which doesn't mirror the credits
or do we credit
Song A
1 as song writer
2 as song writer
Song B
1 as Song Writer
2 as song Writer
which would give context and "mirror the credits
As far as crew groupings go, your sound editor is not the same example.
Charlie |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
it is still a group.
Six sound editors are a group, too - yet we don't use a divider for that. I'm not saying that three people can't form a "group", I'm just saying that the song title is part of their role name, and does not qualify for a divider. Additional question: by your definition, a song written by a single song writer, that lone guy is a "group", too? There are single Visual effects or sound credits as well and there is no hesitation adding him/her when there's some header in the credits. I see no difference with the song credits. And again, the name of the work/product isn't a role. The role is the type of work (song writer, composer, music, lyrics). Examples like "make-up for <actor name>" and "<any kind of original material name> written by" are different because they lack the header structure. | | | | Cor | | | | Last edited: by Corne |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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