Welcome to the Invelos forums. Please read the forum rules before posting.

Read access to our public forums is open to everyone. To post messages, a free registration is required.

If you have an Invelos account, sign in to post.

  Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1... 10 11 12 13 14 ...17  Previous   Next
Partial Contributions (Locked)
Author Message
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributor?
?
Registered: March 14, 2007
Posts: 3,830
Posted:
PM this userVisit this user's homepage
(Credit Only) notification in IMDB database to figure out where to visualy inspect if the actor named does not appear in certain Episode. So you can claim the credit the actor is not there. For however wants to modify the credits of certain episodes.
Sources for one or more of the changes and/or additions were not submitted. Please include the sources for your changes in the contribution notes, especially for cast and crew additions.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
Registered: March 15, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United Kingdom Posts: 5,459
Posted:
PM this user
I wouldn't say no to seeing something like that in Profiler. Especially for the ones where we have to follow non-standard rules and list everyone. It would keep both parties happy.
It would also means we could simplify the rules by removing the word "involved" so we only look at credits rather than anything else.
 Last edited: by northbloke
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantfalcon2099
Member Since: Dec 4, 2002
Registered: May 29, 2007
Canada Posts: 189
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Quoting falcon2099:
Quote:

Let me ask this though: What it by some freak of chance that the people responsible for the beginning credits slipped someone's name (by accident) that was not in the series at all?  What would you do then?


Muddying the waters with these type of far-fetched hypotheticals does not help us reach a consensus.


But it does almost strike true: the actress in questions although she does appear in the beginning credits, does NOT appear in the end credits (with all of the other cast members) and does NOT appear in the episodes in question.
Peter

Contribution Rules
Credit Lookup Tool
DVD Profiler Wiki
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributor?
?
Registered: March 14, 2007
Posts: 3,830
Posted:
PM this userVisit this user's homepage
This is not an accident slipping someones name through.
Sources for one or more of the changes and/or additions were not submitted. Please include the sources for your changes in the contribution notes, especially for cast and crew additions.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantAgrare
Registered: May 22, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 1,033
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collection
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Quoting Agrare:
Quote:


uncrediteds are added to list when people appear in a show but aren't credited, That to me seems that the purpose of the credits is to see what movies/shows someone is in. So why include someone that isn't in the show.


This is what I'm talking about.  Even the two of you who think you are on the same side of this argument, are actually fighting for two different things.

Northbloke only wants to remove credited cast if they do not appear in the episode AND if they are not listed in what he defines as "standard" credits.

Agare wants to remove credited cast if they do not appear in the episode....period.

IF we just enter the credits we see on screen, there is no confusion and we don;t have to worry about visually inspecting the entire episode to see who's there!


Well first off, thats a bit of twisting on my comment. My meaning (which I admittedly may not have been clear on) was really only so far as when dealing with this from opening credits.

However, I would be interested to see a set of end credits that list actors\roles for someone who isn't in the episode\movie (disregarding 'joke\gag' credits).

Also, what is so hard about the concept of all the credits get entered, but if it can be documented that actor xyz does not appear in the episode remove them from that episodes credits. It doesn't require us visually inspecting the entire episode. They are in the episode unless there is evidence that would suggest otherwise, then if you want to remove them you need to provide documention. In this case there is evidence (in opening credits but not repeated in the end credits whereas other actors had been repeated) and the episode was watched confirming that said actor didn't appear. I don't see the problem.

Oh, wait, that's right. Its the part about all contributions must be 100% accurate and complete the first time they are submitted or they must be voted no on.

This is ridiculous.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsynnerman
Take me with you. Please.
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 736
Posted:
PM this user
Quoting northbloke:
Quote:
Quoting Giga Wizard:
Quote:
In case you overlooked them and you want to visualy inspect the missing actors from the IMDB database where all the information is and started the credited only theme.
Johnny de Mol, Claire Littleton, Henry Ian Cusick, Emilie de Ravin, Jorge Garcia, Josh Holloway, Daniel Dae Kim, Yunjin Kim, Dominic Monaghan, Kiele Sanchez, Rodrigo Santoro, Cirroc Lofton, Liberty Van Zandt, Julia Parsons, ...

I may be missing something - but what's this list got to do with the subject at hand?


I think it's a reference to the actors who are in the opening credits, but not always in the episode.  For example, Cirroc Lofton was Jake Sisko on "Deep Space Nine".  He wasn't in every episode, but his name was in the opening credits.  Same goes for most of the "Lost" actors there.

As for the argument, while I agree that the credited name should be there, I still think that the partial contribution should have been allowed, as it would make it easier for someone else to fix the problem once the contribution was accepted, instead of starting from scratch to do so.

It would be nice if there was the ability to take cast and crew data from the contribution page and import it, so if the contribution fails, or we want to make changes to our own database, we can do it with a few simple clicks.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantkdh1949
Have Gun Will Travel
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 2,394
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
Why do we bother to do cast lists for episodes unless we want to document who actually appeared in that episode?

If all we want to do is show who was "credited" we should throw away the part of the rule that says "Do not list Cast and Crew outside of the dividers even if they are credited in all episodes."  Then we would list the principal cast (opening credits) before the episodes and the supporting cast that appears in each episode under an episode divider.  We would save a lot of time and keying if we did it this way.

On the other hand, if what we REALLY want is to show who actually performed in an episode, we would go by the end credits and exclude actors who don't appear in the episode.

Quoting Giga Wizard:
Quote:
Quoting northbloke:
Quote:
How do you interpret the word "involved"?
She is there - she's involved.
She isn't there - she's not involved.


Definition: Involved I think the above is to narrow as an explanation

If that's too narrow an explanation, why don't you share YOUR expanded explanation with us?
Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges.
DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributor?
?
Registered: March 14, 2007
Posts: 3,830
Posted:
PM this userVisit this user's homepage
I did post my understanding of her involvement as she is credited in that episode.
Sources for one or more of the changes and/or additions were not submitted. Please include the sources for your changes in the contribution notes, especially for cast and crew additions.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
Who is John Galt?
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 6,635
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
Quoting kdh1949:
Quote:

If all we want to do is show who was "credited" we should throw away the part of the rule that says "Do not list Cast and Crew outside of the dividers even if they are credited in all episodes."  Then we would list the principal cast (opening credits) before the episodes and the supporting cast that appears in each episode under an episode divider.  We would save a lot of time and keying if we did it this way.


This Rule was included specifically to prevent people from creating a "Main Cast" list at the top of the cast list and then creating individual cast lists below that using episode dividers and only listing cast that were not in the "main cast" list and were credited in the individual episodes.

This concept got extensive discussion on this forum and it was the general consensus not to do it this way as people wanted to see the "main cast" credited in every episode.  The current Rules reflect that consensus.

This Rule has nothing to do with this discussion.
Hal
 Last edited: by hal9g
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantkdh1949
Have Gun Will Travel
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 2,394
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
This Rule has nothing to do with this discussion.

What the rule has to do with the discussion is this:

If our intent is to show everybody credited whether or not they participate in a particular episode, the rule is counterproductive.  It would make sense to show the main cast separate from the "episode cast" so that part of the rule should be deleted.

On the other hand, if our intent is to show who participated in each episode, the rule should be followed but amended to cover a sitution like the Bewitched one.  I don't think our intent is to show a credit just because it exists.  To be useful, a credit must indicate participation.  Many people are forever grousing about how "Linking doesn't work right" and "I can't find every appearance of actor X in my films."  Well, if actor X is shown in the credits but didn't appear in that episode, to be linked to that episode is worthless.

If I'm trying to track the appearances of actor John Doe -- who was in the first episode of a show only, but because of the way producers put together the opening credits he's there throughout the season -- I am given the false impression that he WAS in all episodes instead of what he actually was in.

I know what the rule says.  I understand that there was a need to include Opening Credits to cover the situation where principal casts were not included in the end credits (as with most CURRENT US television series.  I do not for a minute believe, however, that the rule was meant to cover this particular situation.  That interpretation makes no sense at all -- and makes us report data for data's sake with no consideration of the use of those data.
Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges.
DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorPantheon
Registered: March 14, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United Kingdom Posts: 1,819
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collection
Quoting synner_man:
Quote:
I think it's a reference to the actors who are in the opening credits, but not always in the episode.  For example, Cirroc Lofton was Jake Sisko on "Deep Space Nine".  He wasn't in every episode, but his name was in the opening credits.  Same goes for most of the "Lost" actors there


Ah....but in these cases NONE of the main cast were relisted in the end credits (at least I don't think so).

They only appeared in the opening credits...and, as a result, the non-standard credits rule applies and ALL people from the opening credits should be listed.



By the way - I am NOT advocating removing people from profiles if it is discovered that they did not appear (as with Cirroc Lofton above).

If the non-standard credit rule comes into play then ALL cast from the opening credits should be listed...which will prevent having to go through each episode to verify their presence.

However, as far as I am concerned, Bewitched falls under 'standard' credits this is not the case.
 Last edited: by Pantheon
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
Who is John Galt?
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 6,635
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
Quoting kdh1949:
Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
This Rule has nothing to do with this discussion.

What the rule has to do with the discussion is this:

If our intent is to show everybody credited whether or not they participate in a particular episode, the rule is counterproductive.  It would make sense to show the main cast separate from the "episode cast" so that part of the rule should be deleted.

On the other hand, if our intent is to show who participated in each episode, the rule should be followed but amended to cover a sitution like the Bewitched one.  I don't think our intent is to show a credit just because it exists.  To be useful, a credit must indicate participation.  Many people are forever grousing about how "Linking doesn't work right" and "I can't find every appearance of actor X in my films."  Well, if actor X is shown in the credits but didn't appear in that episode, to be linked to that episode is worthless.

If I'm trying to track the appearances of actor John Doe -- who was in the first episode of a show only, but because of the way producers put together the opening credits he's there throughout the season -- I am given the false impression that he WAS in all episodes instead of what he actually was in.

I know what the rule says.  I understand that there was a need to include Opening Credits to cover the situation where principal casts were not included in the end credits (as with most CURRENT US television series.  I do not for a minute believe, however, that the rule was meant to cover this particular situation.  That interpretation makes no sense at all -- and makes us report data for data's sake with no consideration of the use of those data.


Sorry but this just doesn't make sense to me.  Maybe I am just not following you.

Let's take an example.  Stargate SG-1 Season 9.

If I understand you correctly, for the full season profile, you want to put the main cast "above the line" outside the episode dividers and just use the rest of the cast under the appropriate episode divider?

If that's the plan, how does that help us know which of the main cast appeared in which episode.  Richard Dean Anderson was absent for a bunch of the Season 9 episodes.

On disc level profiles (children of the season), you have the same scenario.  The main cast only appears once but not associated with any particular episode.

Northbloke wants to include the "main cast" in every episode of SG-1, since it does not have full cast listings in the end credits.  Again we don't know exactly who was in which episode

Agare wants to have the main cast in every episode of SG-1 unless they did not actually appear in that particular episode.  Here we know who was in every episode, but we have to sit through every one of them to make sure we have eliminated any of the main cast that don;t actually appear.

Once again, I say, enter every cast credit you see on the screen and be done with it.  For those that don't want non-appearing cast in a particular episode, great....delete them locally.
Hal
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantAgrare
Registered: May 22, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 1,033
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collection
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Agare wants to have the main cast in every episode of SG-1 unless they did not actually appear in that particular episode.  Here we know who was in every episode, but we have to sit through every one of them to make sure we have eliminated any of the main cast that don;t actually appear.

Once again, I say, enter every cast credit you see on the screen and be done with it.  For those that don't want non-appearing cast in a particular episode, great....delete them locally.


I want nothing, in fact I surrended and was done with this topic. But since you obviously didn't read my clarifaction on what I said I feel it necessary to re-iterate it (though this will be the last time)

Enter cast from the end credits only, if those credits aren't standard then include the actors from opening credits. However, the existence of opening credits (which most, if not all, shows have) does not make the credits not standard. As is the case here, the cast from opening credits is repeated as applicable to that episode, so those that aren't repeated should not be included unless they can be verified as being in the episode.

In a case where main cast is only listed in the opening I would be for including them. If someone then says well Joe Shmoe wasn't in episode 16 so i removed them, I would be less likely to support this because there is nothing in the credits to support this. In the specific case under discussion however, there is evidence in the credits to support that Agnes Moorehead did not appear in the episode.

Credits are a list of actors in the show. So the way I see it if they are on that list they are in the show so i wouldn't say that each actor needs to be verified. I am really only saying to not include them as it applies to those listed on opening credits. I didn't explicitly say this, but since that is what the whole discussion is about I figured it was understood. It apparently wasn't. YOU made the leap that I want only those that appear. YOU are the only one saying that we now need to watch every episode to do the cast list (even though its been said multiple times this is not the case)

Also everything that that kdh said as far as linking and trying to find appearances of an actor in movie/tv shows

If you still do not understand what I am saying after this,

(really)

however please do not post any more about what I want as you are clearly missinformed

-Agrare
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 17,334
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Quoting Agrare:
Quote:

so only the cast for one episode. Its complete per the rules and your statements. Its the cast exactly as it appears in the end credits. It just so happens to only be the cast for one episode, but there is nothing wrong with it for the one episode. But since the discs contain more than one episode would it technically be incomplete and therefore wrong. Would you vote no?


Yes, I would vote "no".  The cast list for that profile is incmplete, therefore it is wrong per the Rules.

Keep it local til you complete the work, then contribute it.


I agree 100% with Hal on this... and everything else he said in this thread for that matter.
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDaddy DVD
Lost in Translation
Registered: March 14, 2007
Netherlands Posts: 2,366
Posted:
PM this user
Quoting Agrare:
Quote:
This whole idea that we don't accept data that betters the database but isn't 100% accurate is ridiculous. If what is there is accurate and doesn't remove other accurate data then it should be accepted. Otherwise every first contribution for any given section should be 100% accurate and never have to be changed again (unless a rule change makes it incorrect) The fact that its a user created database lends itself that data is going to get entered\corrected in chunks.

And I agree 100% with Agrare on this... and everything else he and Pantheon said in this thread for that matter.
Martin Zuidervliet

DVD Profiler Nederlands
 Last edited: by Daddy DVD
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile Registrantkdh1949
Have Gun Will Travel
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United States Posts: 2,394
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collection
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Sorry but this just doesn't make sense to me.  Maybe I am just not following you.

Let's take an example.  Stargate SG-1 Season 9.

First, I'm not familiar with SG-1 credits (though I did watch most of the episodes when they aired) so I don't know if the main cast are included in the end credits.  I would assume that they are not, following the pattern of most current TV series.  If this is the case, then I classify these as non-standard credits.

Quote:
If I understand you correctly, for the full season profile, you want to put the main cast "above the line" outside the episode dividers and just use the rest of the cast under the appropriate episode divider?

If that's the plan, how does that help us know which of the main cast appeared in which episode.  Richard Dean Anderson was absent for a bunch of the Season 9 episodes.

You are making my point.  The only way to know which episode he appears in is to show him credited only when he actually appears, not when his picture shows up in the opening credits.  Repeating his credit 20 times isn't any more informative than showing it only once above the episode credits.  But we'd only have to enter it once.

If the SG-1 credits do not have the main cast listed in the end credits, then it would be impossible to know which episodes any of them performed in without watching each episode from fron to back.  But this isn't true of Bewitched.  So your comarison is a poor analogy.  Like apples and oranges.

I don't want to show the main cast above the episodes.  I am happy to include them in under an episode divider -- if they actually appear in that episode.  But if they aren't there, I would prefer not to pretend that they are by including their name.  So for those TV shows which show a complete list of all actors appearing in an episode, I feel we should only show those who were actually in that episode.  If the TV show doesn't show a complete list in the end credits, it's a different story -- one which is not worth the additional work needed to verify someone is "missing" from the cast.
On disc level profiles (children of the season), you have the same scenario.  The main cast only appears once but not associated with any particular episode.

Quote:
Once again, I say, enter every cast credit you see on the screen and be done with it.  For those that don't want non-appearing cast in a particular episode, great....delete them locally.

I'll agree with this statement -- EXCEPT I say enter those you see in the end credits, when those end credits include ALL performers.  And if YOU want to include someone like Agnes Moorhead in an episode which she had nothing to do with (i.e., didn't act vocally or visually in it) great....ADD them locally.  The difference is with my way of doing things, we can search on Agnes Moorhead and see those titles she acted in.  With your way of doing things, we can only find titles which include her in the credits -- regardless of whether or not she was actually in the program material.
Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges.
DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001
  Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1... 10 11 12 13 14 ...17  Previous   Next