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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Star Wars II - Episode or not |
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Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,745 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,436 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote: Believe me my friend, no one was more upset about finding this than me. But i also hoped it would be a good object lesson. Remember this not something that I wanted, but it was something that the majority wanted, so now we have THIS What a sad line of reasoning... | | | Achim [諾亞信; Ya-Shin//Nuo], a German in Taiwan. Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative) |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 1,022 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote: Waassamatter, Richie, don't like the taste of crow. Believe me my friend, no one was more upset about finding this than me. But i also hoped it would be a good object lesson. Remember this not something that I wanted, but it was something that the majority wanted, so now we have THIS, and there WILL be others, of differing forms to be sure, but the basic premise is the same. I have discovered another title which was modified by Hal correctly I might add, but the On Screen title is different from the Front Cover title. I would have a lot more respect for you and others, richie, if you would basically do what I did, sigh, cry over it a bit maybe but recognize that the Rules are what they are and no matter the film the Rule applies to ALL. Don't make the mistake of thinking I am pleased about it, I am merely amused and horribly disappointed in (but not at all surprised) the reaction.
You get what you want, until it is no longer convenient or you don't want it any longer. I am sorry but i am not sympathetic. You are not worth the hassle of attacking in response or clarification, your comments and actions say so much about yourself. I actually feel a lot of sympathy for you. Take the time to read back through my posts and submissions, and then you will be in a better position to assess where or where not my personal feelings on this issue lay. RR | | | | | | Last edited: by hayley taylor |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 404 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting richierich: Quote: Quoting skipnet50:
Quote: Waassamatter, Richie, don't like the taste of crow. Believe me my friend, no one was more upset about finding this than me. But i also hoped it would be a good object lesson. Remember this not something that I wanted, but it was something that the majority wanted, so now we have THIS, and there WILL be others, of differing forms to be sure, but the basic premise is the same. I have discovered another title which was modified by Hal correctly I might add, but the On Screen title is different from the Front Cover title. I would have a lot more respect for you and others, richie, if you would basically do what I did, sigh, cry over it a bit maybe but recognize that the Rules are what they are and no matter the film the Rule applies to ALL. Don't make the mistake of thinking I am pleased about it, I am merely amused and horribly disappointed in (but not at all surprised) the reaction.
You get what you want, until it is no longer convenient or you don't want it any longer. I am sorry but i am not sympathetic.
You are not worth the hassle of attacking in response or clarification, your comments and actions say so much about yourself. I actually feel a lot of sympathy for you. Take the time to read back through my posts and submissions, and then you will be in a better position to assess where or where not my personal feelings on this issue lay. RR I think if there's a lesson for Ken in all this, is that the rules should be changed back to guidelines and that the voting on profile submissions should take priority. | | | The Other DVD Forum Why do people who know the least know it the loudest? |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,635 |
| Posted: | | | | | | | If it wasn't for bad taste, I wouldn't have no taste at all.
Cliff |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 1,777 |
| Posted: | | | | I don't think you can change the rules to guidelines. If you did that, there's the 10% of the population who's head would explode without an explicit rule telling them what to do. | | | Last edited: by mdnitoil |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,321 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting mdnitoil: Quote: I don't think you can change the rules to guidelines. If you did that, there's the 10% of the population who's head would explode without an explicit rule telling them what to do. Yes, but if the right people were in that 10% (and I believe they are), it might take care of two problems at the same time. | | | Get the CSVExport and Database Query plug-ins here. Create fake parent profiles to organize your collection. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | We have tried Guidelines, they don't work. And you know that, Mark. Or do i need to remind you "They are only Guidelines, we don't HAVE to follow them." And the database was a total wreck.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| Registered: May 19, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,917 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting VibroCount: Quote:
I think VibroCount reads a certain cat_macros community I read. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,321 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote: We have tried Guidelines, they don't work. And you know that, Mark. Or do i need to remind you "They are only Guidelines, we don't HAVE to follow them." And the database was a total wreck. The guidelines by themselves were a bad idea. Having guidelines with a voting system, more robust contribution system & partial acceptance of updates hasn't been tried yet. I'm not saying that we throw all the rules out the window. But I do sometimes question if we're making things too complicated. I can't think of a better example at the moment than this very thread. We're allowing the rules to back us into a corner where we're forced to make stupid contributions. The rules should be a tool to ensure that the database is populated with good data. Let me repeat that since so many seem to be missing the point. The rules should be a tool to ensure that the database is populated with good data. Instead we're putting ourselves into a position where we're allowing the rules to dictate to us that we place bad data into the database. How can that be considered a good thing? And no, this isn't an endorsement of your theory that things were good before we had the rule changed and you tried to save us and we wouldn't listen. The previous rule was just as bad. It forced us to enter a small percentage of bad data just because the rules said so. The solution to the problem isn't more rules. So unless we can find the perfect wording to cover every conceivable problem that might arise, we're left with putting bad data in from time to time or allowing some room for common sense (combined with the voting system, robust contribution system and partial acceptance of updates) or some other idea that we’ve not thought of yet. I was once told that if what you're doing isn't working, it's time to try something else. I would say that rule upon rule upon rule is forcing us to put bad data into the database. That isn't working to meet the goal of having a good database (I would hope we can all agree that that should be our ultimate goal). So perhaps it's time to try something else. | | | Get the CSVExport and Database Query plug-ins here. Create fake parent profiles to organize your collection. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 813 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Mark Harrison: Quote: [...] We're allowing the rules to back us into a corner where we're forced to make stupid contributions. [...]
This is the crux of it for me. No-one is forced into making stupid contributions like these - there is no rule that says if you see something that does not conform to the letter of the rules then you have to make a contribution. I think most people here would agree that the common sense thing to do in this case is to leave the titles as they are - as they are known universally - and move along without making the contribution. It is breaking no rules doing so. I agree with Mark that it is time to try something else - rules that don't allow for exceptions lead to junk. With the voting system there is no need for them to be no strict. Flame away... I won't see it anyway! | | | Andy
"Credited as" Names Database |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,321 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Lopek: Quote: This is the crux of it for me. No-one is forced into making stupid contributions like these - there is no rule that says if you see something that does not conform to the letter of the rules then you have to make a contribution. Well, you have a point in this particular case. There was no need for these contributions as far as I'm concerned. Still, if they pass, then we're stuck with them and can't change them back. And that obviously doesn't apply to new titles. If we run into a case like this one on a new title, there won't be the option to just leave it be. | | | Get the CSVExport and Database Query plug-ins here. Create fake parent profiles to organize your collection. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Mark:
You make a very interesting comment. what defdinition do you use for Good Data. Good data is based on a standard. We HAD a standard, but the majority decided they wanted ANOTHER standard and no you complain about that standard. As Perte has noted and as I am sure you understand yourself, there is no such thing as a standard that will please everyone. The ONLY other answer is no standard and we know where that goes to already.
I don't understand what all the crying is about, you got what you wanted, unfortunately and predictably this has yielded a result that some don't like. This would be true of ANY standard, it was true of the film credit standard, it would be true of the Credit Block standard or any other possible standard which coulkd be dreamed up. All exceptions do is weaken the Rules overall, and unnecessarily complicate the process. And no I am not one that favors the ever popular "let the voters decide" that leads to a trash database for a whole LIST of reasons I prefer not to deal with. We jhave some users who havce posted here who have an agenda to destroy or weaken the Rules to the point where they are no longer effective. We have other users who only want a Rule as long as the results it yields is consistent with what they THINK the data should be and that the Online database should reflkect that view. To support their misguided concept they throw all sorts or Red Herrings into the mix, demonstrating that they have absolutely no comprehension of how databases function. They even like to throow around a buzz word, usability, by whose definiton, obviously they believe it should be ONLY thier definition of usability and that usability involves having the Online reflect their preferences.
I have said this before and will repeat it again, when you overthink things and begin to believe you know the answer...you are going to be proven wrong everytime. Simply follow the Rules and enter the data per the Rules, and whatever you want to do locally is your business. Common sense does not apply because no two people will have precisely the same concept of what that means. It kind of reminds me of Monopoly which has Rules, most people I have known over the years play Monopoly by their own house Rules, which only vaguely resemble the real Rules. But if you go play in a tournament you play the game by the Rules that Parker Bros. wrote and no amount of whining or complaining that your house Rules are better will change that. The House Rules are your database locally, Contributing you are playing in the tournament and you will play by the Rules as laid down by Invelos PERIOD. Do I like the new Rule change....NO, I don't....will I follow it without complaint...yes, I will...ruthlessly and to the letter.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,334 |
| Posted: | | | | I have to agree with Skip on this one... with the exception of one thing... he openly says he does not like the new rule... where I openly say I do like the new rule... despite titles like this one that comes up. | | | Pete | | | Last edited: by Addicted2DVD |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | And on that we can respectfully disagree, Pete. The bottom line is that I will not whine about it, I will do what Ken wants. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: March 20, 2007 | Posts: 262 |
| Posted: | | | | I want to thank Mark & Andy for their thoughtful remarks on this issue.
I agree wholeheartedly -- this slavish devotion to the "rules" no matter what the results is giving us a bad data here. I agree that the voting mechanism is a good way of incorporating common sense (in the form of limited exceptions) into the process. If the consensus of users is that a particular change is a bad one it Ken should feel free not to implement it regardless of the rules.
The thing that troubles me is that some people feel compelled to follow the rules. I also agree that people are not compelled to make a contribution that changes accepted data -- in this case I think the titles could have been left alone. I agree that a good set of rules are an important part of maintaining consistency (i.e. not listing 2-Disc Set as an other feature) but they should not trump the primary purpose which Mark summed up well --- populate the database with good data.
Fundamentally what we really need is for users to act in good faith and respect each others views -- i.e. not threatening voting or contribution bans, not submitting contributions out of spite, and avoiding name calling. We can disagree on these matters without being nasty.
Brian |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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