Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:

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But almost anything, Tim, is preferable to the back and forth, not to mention the repetition, that we have now.

I don't like the endless back and forth and the repetition either, but I think that would be best solved by a little more involvement from Invelos. We've seen that recently: Ken weighing in on certain problems has worked absolute wonders. Just a few more of those "executive decisions" would help tremendously - I really think that's all we need. Those that REALLY want to can still track whatever they want using custom crew.

IMHO there really aren't that many problematic areas - it's just that we hardly ever "solve" one, so they keep coming up indefinitely.

Quoting Addicted2DVD:

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Well... the way I was thinking is that we would still have the categories we have now... but instead of roles we had to choose from we just had a text field that we type in the actual role from the credits. Then we still have the local only Other for the people that want to track categories that is not tracked in the online database.

http://www.invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=370161

Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:

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My position is always the same, if a user wants a piece of data and we can do so within the parameters of where we are at any given moment, then he should be able to have it. that was the position i took with Sound, I have no interest in Sound, but it is not MY database and it does not serve ME, my LOCAL serves ME.

Exactly what I've been trying to illustrate. You have "no interest in Sound", but you now have to track the data to be able to contribute any other crew changes. In this scenario, only initial contributions run smooth (you simply profile whatever you want to do), but as soon as you want to make additions and/or corrections to existing profiles, you're going to have to deal with the sound crew that you didn't want in the first place. This is already somewhat of a burden now, but I shudder to think what would happen if that plays out the same way for, say, a few dozen carpenters, painters, accountants, caterers and make-up-truck drivers. I don't want to track them, I don't want to accept them into my database unverified either, and I sure as hell don't want the burden of having to research their common names and having to add lots of (mostly fake because none can be found) birth years to keep them separated from other cast/crew members with the same names.

As you say, everyone should be able to track what they wish - and the good news is that we can indeed all do just that, using the custom crew feature.

Quoting T!M:

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Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:

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My position is always the same, if a user wants a piece of data and we can do so within the parameters of where we are at any given moment, then he should be able to have it. that was the position i took with Sound, I have no interest in Sound, but it is not MY database and it does not serve ME, my LOCAL serves ME.

Exactly what I've been trying to illustrate. You have "no interest in Sound", but you now have to track the data to be able to contribute any other crew changes. In this scenario, only initial contributions run smooth (you simply profile whatever you want to do), but as soon as you want to make additions and/or corrections to existing profiles, you're going to have to deal with the sound crew that you didn't want in the first place. This is already somewhat of a burden now, but I shudder to think what would happen if that plays out the same way for, say, a few dozen carpenters, painters, accountants, caterers and make-up-truck drivers. I don't want to track them, I don't want to accept them into my database unverified either, and I sure as hell don't want the burden of having to research their common names and having to add lots of (mostly fake because none can be found) birth years to keep them separated from other cast/crew members with the same names.

As you say, everyone should be able to track what they wish - and the good news is that we can indeed all do just that, using the custom crew feature.

But unlike you, tim. I don't whine about it. I just do it, if we had open credits in some form, I wouldn't complain about it, I would just do it. Even better if we had a way to accept whatever data we wanted from the Online....then i could Contribute whatever I wanted to...as much or as little and without any complaint.I don't believe that the Online serves ME, that is the job of my local. The Online provides a basis for my data and nothing more, and with the weaknesses in the system right now which are well documented a pretty weak basis at that.

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Quoting Vittra:

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Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:

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Vittra:

The Online is not to serve MOST or the majoprity it is to serve ALL users. IF somebody felt the need to enter ALL Crew, I would think he is absolutely out of his tree, but he should be able to do so and you nor me should hold themselves up as a roadblock to that. In such an event you and i should be able to select exactly which pieces of data we want out of the dataset. This is the first time I have ever seen users whine about having TOO MUCH data and trying to pretend that too much is a bad thing. It may be bad to you, to me and others, but it is not bad to everybody. Your local is for YOUR control, the Online is for nobody's control, save Ken. My position is always the same, if a user wants a piece of data and we can do so within the parameters of where we are at any given moment, then he should be able to have it. that was the position i took with Sound, I have no interest in Sound, but it is not MY database and it does not serve ME, my LOCAL serves ME.

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How come I knew you would follow my post with a "YOU" vs. "ALL" speech... 

I see your point, but I really don't agree with it. This is of course just my opinion, but I think the online should take the middle ground in most aspects. If there is something that will serve the majority without need of editing locally, that is what the online should serve. As the majority do not mess with the data much as all they want is to be able to catalog their DVDs.

You and I, and probably most forum poster's here don't have much problems editing our data locally, but I would hate to put the average user into a position that it's required just to get some decent information out of the program.

Point is, the online should have a stance that will please the most people without modification. No extremes. Complete open crew credits would be an extreme IMO and I would hate for that to happen personally. Those who want complete crew credits locally are already free to do so. The online doesn't need to serve "ALL" because the program already does that just fine locally. The online should serve the majority. 

Oh and just to be clear, I'm not trying to say the online must serve "ME", since many times I add information locally. I would just like decisions based on the majority rather than the minority.

Beware the tyranny of the majority.

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Quoting TheMadMartian:

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Quoting Vittra:

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Point is, the online should have a stance that will please the most people without modification. No extremes. Complete open crew credits would be an extreme IMO and I would hate for that to happen personally. Those who want complete crew credits locally are already free to do so. The online doesn't need to serve "ALL" because the program already does that just fine locally. The online should serve the majority. 

I agree with this completely.  The online is meant to be a starting point for everybody.  As such, it can't be all things for all users.

I like Pete's idea, though I don't know if it will solve all the arguments we have, but it is a far better choice than full open credits.

Well, mow as I said, Martian. I welcome a discussion on this. I know full well the ramifications of Full Open credits. But I am also sick to death of the stupid and endless back and forth around here and will do anything to stop it. perhaps you enjoy it...I don't. Now is there a rational we can have Open credits without going all in. I don't know. Pete's suggestion sound like a maybe but let's explaore that a bit. How far do we go, do we now allow ALL Art directors including assistants. Now i for one would say yes, for the simple reason that we will no doubt still have endless discussions and arguments over thios or that particular credit which is an Art Director credit but we overlooked it , probably because we weren't aware of it. Or the people who want to just because  they do. As noted, Visual/Special/Digital Effects can take on nightmare proportions in and of themselves. I, fortunately don't see much of a problem in Sound in this area, it would open up some new Credits but generally Sound is pretty well-defined, even with the addition of ADR, Dialogue and so forth. Would we want to open up to all songs to a given movie...part of me says yes and part says are you crazy.       But from what i am seeing the last thing anyone wants to do here is have a discussion which would benefit all of us, they seem to be very happy with endless back and forth, bad feelings (and I have plenty myself) and periodical repetition of threads, especiall after they have been "solved" to some degree, but someone just wants more back and forth.

I look forward to discussion, but it doesn't appear that anyone wants to do that, the minds are closed.

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Quoting VirusPil:

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Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:

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...
Beware the tyranny of the majority.

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I always thought majority decisions are called democracy, not tyranny.   

They are.