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Breaking the Rules?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorninehours
Registered: April 3, 2007
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Are people who add extended information into company dividers in the crew section breaking the rules by doing so?
i have changed a divider that said <<<New Deal Studios>>> to <<<Miniature Effects & Photography by New Deal Studios>>> (plus other changes) and have received this no vote
Quote:
Per the rules, we only put the company name in the crew dividers, nothing else.

is this correct, is it actually against the rules to add this extended information, are everyone that contribute dividers this way breaking the rules?
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
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Registered: May 19, 2007
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Just reread the rules and couldn't find anything about this special problem except for the "these groupings should mirror the film credits".
So, your additional information does not violate the rules (provided, of course, that it mirrors the actual credit), the wording might even support your approach. I still wouldn't enter it this way, but I surely wouldn't vote "No".
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


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 Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorVoltaire53
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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On one side we have "these groupings should mirror the film credits" as Silence points out on the other we have "If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name." (which implies just to enter the company name, not the whole thing).

Mostly though, I'm with Silence - not sure what is preferred but I don't think either way actually violates the Rules and certainly wouldn't No vote it.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Let me quote The MadMartian from a previous discussion about this (here):

Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Quoting Pantheon:
Quote:
I've said before, currently both Visual Effect by Pixel Magic or simply Pixel Magic are both correct.

Actually, they are not.  I knew something about this was bugging me and, after going back to read the rules, I found what it was.

From the rules, bolding by me:  "List individual credits only, not company name credits. Exception: If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name."

The rules tell us to enter the company name.  That's it.  They don't tell us to copy the credit exactly, just "enter the company name."  I can't believe it took be 8 pages to figure that out. 
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
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Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Let me quote The MadMartian from a previous discussion about this (here):

Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Quoting Pantheon:
Quote:
[...]From the rules, bolding by me:  "List individual credits only, not company name credits. Exception: If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name."

The rules tell us to enter the company name.  That's it.[...]



This is one of the few cases where I actually disagree with the Martian.
The quote only tells us about when we are allowed to enter the company name, not how we have to enter it. It is the exception to the general "use individual credits only", not more and not less.
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


Registrant since 05/22/2003
 Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorT!M
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Look: this is a very big issue. I'd say it affects at least half of all my profiles. I just can't have "either way is fine" - I'm sorry, but that doesn't work for me. This continued "well, you do it your way, I'll do mine" approach wreaks havoc on the contribution system: if both ways are okay, then no matter which way I go, I'll always have problems with half of my profiles. When the on-line variant of handling this differs from how I've chosen to do it, I'm virtually cut off from ever contributing any more crew changes to such a profile - unless I want to play ping-pong, or go through the ordeal of editing my dividers before contributing, and then fixing it right back. That really can't be Ken's intent.

Therefore, it has to be one or the other, and yes, the other has to be against the rules. Frankly, I don't even care that much which way we go - as long as we all go the same way. Either we all list the company name, or we all list the entire credit. Well, no matter how you spin it, the rules only speak of the company name, we've had a pretty conclusive poll on the subject in the rules committee forum (here), and we've discussed it great length several times. Every time, the outcome has been that the majority wants to stick to just the company name. Finally, there are also the obvious problems with field length when we'd try to cram it all in. That should also tell us something. Last but not least there's the concept that we never track any "additional context" for any of the crew credits. We've got the ability to store the actual credits locally, but they're not part of the online database. I don't see how this is any different. With that overwhelming support for just the company name, I'd say: let's just go with that, then, and strive for a bit of consistency in the database, instead of ending up with an inconsistent mess?
 Last edited: by T!M
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCorne
Registered: Nov. 1, 2000
Registered: April 5, 2007
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I don't really care whether the extended info is added or not. The rules don't give much guidance concerning this issue. I agree with Silence_of_Lambs. The rules only tell us when we are allowed to add company names and not how. But like T!M I do want consistency. Until now I've seen studio entries only in this cases so I prefer the studio name. But the rules don't prohibit the extended info so to give an answer to the topic starter's question: No, you're not breaking the rules.
Cor
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
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I agree with Tim and Corne,
consistency is needed, so even though Nick's approach does not violate the rules, it might not be helpful to enter this "additional information".
I think Tim pinned down the reasons for "company name only" quite well. And since we already seem to have poll-results supporting this approach, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't stick to it.

EDIT: I think it would be useful if Ken could enter the little word "only" to the exception rule. It then would read:
Quote:
List individual credits only, not company name credits. Exception: If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name only.


Sounds a bit awkward, so maybe someone with better English can help here.
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


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 Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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It seems to me that if you want to make a literal interpretation of the rule, then you have to be consistent. Let me explain. The wording is
If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name.

If you interpret the last "the company name" as "only the company name", then you should do the same for the first occurrence. So, in effect the rule would be
If only a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter only the company name.

So if the header says "Industrial Light & Magic" then it would be ok to use that as a divider. If it says "Visual effects by Industrial Light & Magic" then you wouldn't be able to use any divider at all.

Is that what Ken intended? I don't think so. Draw whatever conclusions you like...
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
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Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
If you interpret the last "the company name" as "only the company name", then you should do the same for the first occurrence. So, in effect the rule would be
If only a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter only the company name.

???
This logic fails me
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


Registrant since 05/22/2003
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
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I think either way is fine. Nothing in rules can used to vote no on one or another solution.

This situation seems the best for me.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorNexus the Sixth
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As long as the rules keep telling us to mirror the film credtis, we shouldn't be surprised when people actually try to copy them in every possible detail. That's why we get crazy submissions like empty group dividers. 
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantMuckl
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Quoting Silence_of_Lambs:
Quote:
Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
If you interpret the last "the company name" as "only the company name", then you should do the same for the first occurrence. So, in effect the rule would be
If only a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter only the company name.

???
This logic fails me

I think I understand what GSyren means. Literally speaking, the quoted rule tells us to enter "the company name", if "a company name heads a group of crew". But the rules don't cover the case when a combination of company name and extended info heads a group of credits, like "Miniature Effects & Photography by New Deal Studios".

==> Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
So if the header says "Industrial Light & Magic" then it would be ok to use that as a divider. If it says "Visual effects by Industrial Light & Magic" then you wouldn't be able to use any divider at all.



It's fine with me either way. The extra info doesn't do any harm – indeed, it's kind of neat to have additional info on the type of visual effects, I think. But I'm also for consistency, so just let the poll decide (if Ken doesn't step in).
 
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 Last edited: by Muckl
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
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You've got it, Muckl.

My position is that you can't mix and match definitions. Either you take it literally or you don't.

You can interpret the rule as "If a company name is part of the heading of a group of crew then use the group divider to enter (only) the company name".

But you can't justify that interpretation by saying that the rules say "the company name" and nothing else. Because if you do, then you're saying that half of the rule is to be taken literally and the other half is not. You can't have it both ways...

That said, I'm personally not in favor of a literal interpretation, so I'm fine with the extended info.
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Gunnar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorninehours
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In the thread linked to by Tim, Ken Cole posted this

Quoting Ken Cole:
Quote:
I'm torn on this one. The group dividers are not credits - they're there not to be directly tracked and linked, but to provide context for the credits under them, and to help match the overall credit display.

Since the votes are currently in favor of including only the company name, I'd like to see some discussion as to why this is preferred over the full entry.

The current limit of 60 easily fits the example (Visual Effects by Industrial Light & Magic).  Abbreviation of the category would help fit longer entries (V.FX:[Really Long and Involved Company Name]).

This would seem to indicate that Ken has not made his mind up about how these dividers should be formated
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorStaid S Barr
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The rules say to enter the company name, not anything else.

As for mirroring the film credits, that remark is about the grouping, in other words, when to include a divider and when not. But the contents of the divider should be a company name.
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