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Next Common Name: Violetta Gräfin Tarnowska Bronner in Bourne Supremacy
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRince81
Registered: May 9, 2007
Germany Posts: 72
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This is a special one and credit lookup is useless and this is "wrong" in all profiles of the Bourne Supremacy...

This poll is clear, never include any prefixes:
http://www.invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=197984

This actress plays in two movies which are available as DVD, a little german film (1985) named "Otto - Der Film" (Otto - The Movie") and in Bourne Supremacy (2004).
In Bourne Supremacy she is credited as "Violetta Gräfin Tarnowska Bronner". This gets 4 titles (20 profiles) via credit lookup.
Her imdb name "Violetta Grafin Tarnowska Bronner" gets via credit lookup 9 titles (37 profiles)
In reality this are not a clear 4:9 titles or 20:37 profiles - all profiles are from Bourne Supremacy (1 title 57 profiles)  and so credit lookup is clearly and documented wrong. She was never credited "Grafin".
In the german movie she is credited as "Gräfin Violetta Tarnowska" and there is one profile in the database.

1:1... 

IMDB does not get this point and has two entries:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0848742/
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0850560/

And there is another problem "Gräfin" is not a part of the name. This is a german nobility title similar to the british "countess". If we not include this there is a choice between "Violetta Tarnowska" and "Violetta Tarnowska Bronner" as common name. None of them can be found via credit lookup. All profiles list Gräfin as middle or as part of the last name. This is similar to Maggie//Dame Smith or Maggie/Dame/Smith... 

But in my opinion "Violetta Tarnowska Bronner" should be the correct common name because it is more precisely. Am I right or wrong?
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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IMDb is irrelevant.

Waht is relevant is how she IS credited in the film, and the Lookup Tool results assuming that that data is correct, which it likely is not. My guess is that there are various versions of a given title that must be corrected one way of the other. As I have said before, if As Credited is NOT correct then the Alias will never be right either.

An part of her name that is credited is used as it is in the film credits, this has been explored again for the umpteenth time elsewhere TODAY. Poll results are irrelevant,. AS CREDITED

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRince81
Registered: May 9, 2007
Germany Posts: 72
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Quote:
IMDb is irrelevant.


I not want to use IMDB! I wrote that credit lookup is obviously wrong because of imdb data in many profiles!

Quote:
AS CREDITED


what about credited as?
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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As I said Hilbert the foundation is AS CREDITED , if that is not right then Credited AS will NEVER be right.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Once again it does not matter... unless you can document enough being wrong in the look-up tool... all we can do is use the look-up tool's results. and that poll does not matter as it does not over-ride what the look-up tool and Ken's statement says... all it does is show Ken what we prefer... then it is up to him if he wants to change the rule.
Pete
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantAgrare
Registered: May 22, 2007
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I think proper documentation was provided in this post that the credit look-up tool is wrong.

if the actress is in two movies. once as "Violetta Gräfin Tarnowska Bronner" and the other as "Gräfin Violetta Tarnowska" then neither one would be more credited. So for that do you go with a) the movie that came out first as the common name since that one would 'technically' have been added first or b) the second one as it's 'likely' (ultimately just a guess) she changed how she was credited and future movies would probably use this way.

Then the other issue is that Gräfin is a title, and how to treat that. I would think this would be like Dr. or Senator (which there is currently a thread on) and be put as part of the first name, but based on the info provided by Hilbert, I wouldn't be sure on the parsing of the name. I would guess Violetta is the first name, but is Tarnowska Bronner middle/last name or all last name? Also, I think that since the title is after the first name, it further confuses the issue.

-Agrare
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
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my apologies as I was reading quickly and misread what was being said. I need to remember to slow down and double read when I reply to a post
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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It doesn't confuse me at all, agrare. But then I don't get all wrapped around the axle about such things, I see it on screen and deal with it.

Violetta Gräfin Tarnowska Bronner=Violetta /Gräfin Tarnowska /Bronner simply based on screen data
I suppose since the Germans put the tile in an unusual place with documentation it could be Violetta Gräfin/ Tarnowska /Bronner

The alias would be setup by what the Lookup Tool says TODAY, tomorrow it may be entirely different. The count on Robert Downey Jr /,Jr. is much different today than it was a few weeks ago as some corrections have been made.

But to not include the tile is just silly if it is part of the credit. It strikes me as removing del from Hispanic names, which translates of the. IF it were not part of the name, or considered so by the person involved then they woul;d arrange through their contract to have the name appear in some other way.

I do not comprehend why we have to get all wrapped around the axle with this....umm...silliness. I don't know what else to call. See it on the Screen, type it. My only argument is with Lookup Tool, all it does is deal with similar name apearances, it does NOT guarantee that similar names belong to the SAME person and if we do not document that Name A=Name B=Name C then we are only asking for trouble. This is why I am by and large not making use of the Alias system yet, but if you assume that Name A=Name B except in the most obvious of cases like Jr/, Jr., then I will vote No absolutely everytime because I want the data to be correct. I don't want to discover that Glen and Glenn REALLY are TWO different people,  at that point we are NO BETTER than another unnamed database.

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CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantAgrare
Registered: May 22, 2007
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It may not confuse you, but I think you can see how it might confuse someone who doesn't do a lot of full cast contributions. Especially since in this case they see that the name in the credit lookup tool isn't parsed correctly into first middle and last.

my question (that admittedly is only brought up when taking the two credits together) is how to treat 'Tarnowska Bronner' is that  middle/last name or all last name.

also, unless i'm incorrect that its first/middle/last based on screen data for Violetta Gräfin Tarnowska Bronner i would (if i didn't ask in the forums or have knowledge that Gräfin is a title) parase that to Violetta /Gräfin /Tarnowska Bronner similar to a hyphenated last name.

I agree (and understand) that the credit lookup tool can change, but in this case, even if everything was credited correctly, you would have 2 titles, each with a different credit, so there really is no common name.

-Agrare
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantgardibolt
digitally Obsessed
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 1,414
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There's no way the title properly gets in the middle name slot, though.  I would think it should be in the first, to keep it consistent with other titles.
"This movie has warped my fragile little mind."
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRince81
Registered: May 9, 2007
Germany Posts: 72
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Quote:
if the actress is in two movies. once as "Violetta Gräfin Tarnowska Bronner" and the other as "Gräfin Violetta Tarnowska" then neither one would be more credited. So for that do you go with a) the movie that came out first as the common name since that one would 'technically' have been added first or b) the second one as it's 'likely' (ultimately just a guess) she changed how she was credited and future movies would probably use this way.


Correct. She played only in a very few movies or in TV, ich checked several databases. This two are apparently the only one available on DVD. The first movie Otto is from 1985, so i dont think that there will be many relevant future movies. 

Quote:

I would guess Violetta is the first name, but is Tarnowska Bronner middle/last name or all last name? Also, I think that since the title is after the first name, it further confuses the issue.


Violetta is the first name. In Germany such old nobility titles are generally in front of the last name. So i think that Tarnowska Bronner is the full last name.

Quote:

But to not include the tile is just silly if it is part of the credit.


But there is the pinned common name database guideline thread with the poll about such titles and prefixes. This thread seems with the pin a little bit official to me and seems to work as a guideline for contributions and to take a common name without title/prefix and use the "credited as" feature to match the actual endcredits.
 
I just want to find the name which i can use in both profiles and i want to say "Hey, this one is correct and i can prove it...".
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantAgrare
Registered: May 22, 2007
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ok, well its clear Violetta is the first name, based on how things are done with titles for Dr. and Senator and the like I would say to put the first name as 'Violetta Gräfin'

based on your info on titles before last name, i would then say, no middle name and for the last name either:

Tarnowska Bronner - as she is credited in Bourne Supremacy
or
Tarnowska - as she is credited in the other movie

either way, one title will need a credited as, and the other won't. I did find a site that list alternate names with Tarnowska-Bronner (though it appears to have a typo with it as Tamowska-Bronner). Which while only one source does seem to support that Tarnowska Bronner is the full last name.

As has been said, polls don't override rules and what Ken said.

Anyway, thats how I see it, hope it helps.

-Agrare
 Last edited: by Agrare
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsugarjoe
Registered: March 15, 2007
Germany Posts: 374
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Quoting HilbertHimmelwaerts:
Quote:


And there is another problem "Gräfin" is not a part of the name. This is a german nobility title similar to the british "countess". If we not include this there is a choice between "Violetta Tarnowska" and "Violetta Tarnowska Bronner" as common name. None of them can be found via credit lookup. All profiles list Gräfin as middle or as part of the last name. This is similar to Maggie//Dame Smith or Maggie/Dame/Smith... 

But in my opinion "Violetta Tarnowska Bronner" should be the correct common name because it is more precisely. Am I right or wrong?


I am afraid you are wrong. 1918 Germany stopt nobility but allowed nobles to keep their title as part of their last name.

So she is Violetta//Gräfin Tarnowska Bronner.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorm.cellophane
tonight's the night...
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting sugarjoe:
Quote:
I am afraid you are wrong. 1918 Germany stopt nobility but allowed nobles to keep their title as part of their last name.

So she is Violetta//Gräfin Tarnowska Bronner.

Thanks for this bit of info. I will update my local db with this...but I'm steering clear of the master db on this one.
...James

"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRince81
Registered: May 9, 2007
Germany Posts: 72
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Quoting sugarjoe:
Quote:

I am afraid you are wrong. 1918 Germany stopt nobility but allowed nobles to keep their title as part of their last name.

So she is Violetta//Gräfin Tarnowska Bronner.


Thanks for that info, i just checked the german Wikipedia and yes, the title i part of the last name. This sounds good to me.
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantgardibolt
digitally Obsessed
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Well, learned something new.  Thanks for the info.
"This movie has warped my fragile little mind."
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