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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,680 |
| | Posted: | | | | The rules really have very little to say about common names: Quote:
To determine whether to enter the name directly as credited, or to use the "Credited As" field, use the Credit Lookup tool.
It is not necessary to document the source of the common name, outside the use of the CLT. If there is a dispute over whether the credit references the same person, documentation may be necessary. However, in most cases it is not required.
The inclusion of CLT results in contribution notes is strongly desired but not required. Note: In the case of uncertainty, leaving this out may cause the contribution to be declined So what exactly is the common name supposed to be? Well, I can see two different interpretations. 1) The name that is most commonly used for a person within the DVD Profiler database. 2) The name that is most commonly used for a person in the actual film credits. It would seem to me that the primary (and perhaps the only) intended function of the common name is to provide correct linking of names within DVD Profiler. There is no indication in the rules that it is supposed to reflect the most common actual movie credit. The fact that Ken implemented the CLT – that only supports alternative 1 – suggests to me that alternative 1 is what he had in mind. Here is what Ken wrote back in 2009: Quote:
It is not necessary to document the source of the common name, outside the use of the CLT. If there is a dispute over whether the credit references the same person, documentation may be necessary. However, in most cases it is not required.
I have notified the evaluators to disregard general demands for specific documentation of common name outside the use of the CLT.
Users who prefer more rigidly documented common names are free to enforce those rules on their local data. Unfortunately it is virtually impossible to search the forums for quotes by Ken regarding “common name”, so I guess it’s possible that he changed his stance later. Given that the common name threads started to appear long before Ken vanished from the forums, one would assume that he would have said something about it. Perhaps someone who keeps better track than me of Ken’s postings can enlighten us? | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
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| Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 5,715 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
So what exactly is the common name supposed to be? Well, I can see two different interpretations.
1) The name that is most commonly used for a person within the DVD Profiler database.
2) The name that is most commonly used for a person in the actual film credits. 3) The name that is most commonly used for a person in the movie credits of the films existing in the DVD Profiler database! This is the number the CLT would produce, if everybody would follow the rules and use the movie credits as sole source. | | | | Complete list of Common Names • A good point for starting with Headshots (and v11.1) |
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| Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 6,463 |
| | Posted: | | | | But the CLT doesn't produce that number. The CLT reports on credits that are found, given any name you search for. I think part of the problem we have here is the imprecise use of terms (look who's talking - Mr. Imprecise himself  ). There is no definition of common name that makes sense other than the one we just got from AiAustria.There is no tool that generates the common name, although the CLT provides data that could feed such a tool. There is no linkage of common names to other names (variants, aliases, ?) used, and no tool that supports that linkage to help contributors.But we do have an amazing head start with the threads, and a hot tool designer and the owner of the threads talking about it. So, there is hope. If I can help you guys in any way, just shout. | | | Thanks for your support.
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Hey, new product!!! BDPFrog. | | | | Last edited: by mediadogg |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,680 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
3) The name that is most commonly used for a person in the movie credits of the films existing in the DVD Profiler database! But doesn't Ken's statement "Users who prefer more rigidly documented common names are free to enforce those rules on their local data" rather contradict that? | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
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| Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,463 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
Quoting AiAustria:
Quote:
3) The name that is most commonly used for a person in the movie credits of the films existing in the DVD Profiler database!
But doesn't Ken's statement "Users who prefer more rigidly documented common names are free to enforce those rules on their local data" rather contradict that? In my opinion, no contradiction. The contribution rules don't necessarily apply to local collections. Do what you want. It is only if you want to contribute, that the rules apply. That's my interpretation anyway. | | | Thanks for your support.
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Hey, new product!!! BDPFrog. |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,680 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mediadogg: Quote:
In my opinion, no contradiction. The contribution rules don't necessarily apply to local collections. Do what you want. It is only if you want to contribute, that the rules apply. That's my interpretation anyway. You seem to have misunderstood what I meant. My take on Ken's statement is basically "If you don't agree with the CLT, keep it local". That goes against what Aiaustria wants. | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
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| Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,463 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
Quoting mediadogg:
Quote:
In my opinion, no contradiction. The contribution rules don't necessarily apply to local collections. Do what you want. It is only if you want to contribute, that the rules apply. That's my interpretation anyway.
You seem to have misunderstood what I meant. My take on Ken's statement is basically "If you don't agree with the CLT, keep it local". That goes against what Aiaustria wants. Well Ok, but basically what he wants is for people to follow the contribution rules, and the "common name" falls out from that. And if they don't want to follow the rules, keep it local. I still see no contradiction, so I guess we have to agree to disagree on that. | | | Thanks for your support.
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Hey, new product!!! BDPFrog. |
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| Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,463 |
| | Posted: | | | | Holy Toledo! I just got the raw data spreadsheet. Oh gosh, salivating over all that delicious data! (yes, I took your bait this time!) I wonder if GSyren could take a look and comment on what a possible tool would do? - What would a CNT ("Common Name Tool") do? - What functions could be done without access to the online? - What functions would need access to online database calls? - How would the CNT relate to the CLT? What kind of synergy? What an exciting project this could be for the rest of 2021 while we wait for the end of Covid.  If Gunnar would agree to design / build of the UI, I could adapt HTTPJolie to make some high speed database calls that you need, or if necessary, convert to plugin form (hopefully not needed). How's about it?  | | | Thanks for your support.
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Hey, new product!!! BDPFrog. | | | | Last edited: by mediadogg |
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| Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,463 |
| | Posted: | | | | Some other questions:
- What would be the form of the raw database? XML? SQL?
- How would the raw database be updated? Hosted somewhere?
- Would the tool have an update capability?
- How to control access and update authority?
- How to make it (more) useful and accessible to the community? | | | Thanks for your support.
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Hey, new product!!! BDPFrog. |
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| Registered: March 20, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,851 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting AiAustria: Quote:
3) The name that is most commonly used for a person in the movie credits of the films existing in the DVD Profiler database!
This is the number the CLT would produce, if everybody would follow the rules and use the movie credits as sole source. Since this will never happen is isn't a realistic option. --------------- |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,680 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mediadogg: Quote:
Well Ok, but basically what he wants is for people to follow the contribution rules, and the "common name" falls out from that. If all profiles had been entered following the rules we wouldn't have a problem. However, AiAustria's suggestion is that we base the common names on the data that should have been in the profiles if they had been entered correctly, while I maintain that Ken's statement indicates that we should base them on what actually exists in the profiles. | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
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| Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,463 |
| | Posted: | | | | I think we have a totally different interpretation of what "common name" means. That's OK. That's why people talk - to achieve understanding, even if not agreement.
Furthermore, I am no longer sure I understand what "the problem" is. Actors are people, and people do weird things. You can carefully follow all the rules and still have multiple legitimate variants, and multiple legitimate "creditedAs" entries.
Now, my question is, in your view, what would be considered the "common name" if we all followed the rules, and what would we use it for?
So, to reiterate my questions:
- what is the problem?
- what is a common name?
- how does a common name solve the problem? | | | Thanks for your support.
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Hey, new product!!! BDPFrog. | | | | Last edited: by mediadogg |
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| Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,463 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
... I maintain that Ken's statement indicates that we should base them on what actually exists in the profiles. Now, back to this issue. My question would be, why would Ken create a rule based on people breaking the other rules? My assumption is that he presumed that what is actually in the profiles does follow the rules. That is what the rules are for. So it is totally reasonable to assume that what should be in there, actually is in there ... if not, you get problems, and therein lies the motivation to get it right. | | | Thanks for your support.
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Hey, new product!!! BDPFrog. |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,680 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mediadogg: Quote:
- what is the problem?
- what is a common name?
- how does a common name solve the problem? I thought my original post made my views on that fairly clear. If you double click an entry in the cast or crew list for a profile, you get a listing of all profiles where that person is credited. But it only works if he/she is listed the same way in all profiles. That's why we have common names that may be different from the actual credited name ("credited as"). So basically the common name is a database key to all profiles for the same person. So how do we establish what that key should be. The easy way is to just use the name that occurs most in the already provided profiles. The CLT can do that. The hard way is to try to reasearch what is actually the most common credit in the actual movie credits. There is no way to automate that. It has to be done "by hand". And even so, it's impossible to find every actual credit for every person in the database. So at best you'll end up with an estimation for the common name for just some of the persons. So, if the main goal is to get the best possible name linkage, the CLT is the way to go. Common name threads may give you more a correct name in the profiles that you actually update, but it provides a less useful database key for linkage. Does that answer your questions? | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
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| Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,463 |
| | Posted: | | | | Thank you for answering my questions. Sorry to put you through the trouble.
What gets me confused is the conflation between what "is" and what should be. For example, there is no such thing as "common name" in DVD Profiler. There is no API for plugins and no field to look at.
Trust me, in order to write CLTBoss and get it to match (almost always) the CLT listing taught me a lot about how the database works and what the CLT looks at. | | | Thanks for your support.
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Hey, new product!!! BDPFrog. | | | | Last edited: by mediadogg |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,680 |
| | Posted: | | | | I should add that having two different ways of creating a database key is not a good thing, as the recent disc id debacle illustrates.
Also, not all contributors read the forums even if they might use the CLT. | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
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